Author Topic: A new approach to evolution  (Read 12374 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2023, 03:30:27 PM »
There is plenty of evidence for all sorts of things if only we can notice them.
Really - I'm all ears. Lead me to this validated credible, reproducible evidence.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/evidence/
Oh - but that's just your blog Sriram - that's not evidence. It doesn't even cite any sources.


Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2023, 03:36:50 PM »


We have to go back to the example of a village full of born blind people. Light is everywhere but they are unable to notice it.

Do you realize that no one noticed gravity for thousands of years till Newton came along? 

Gordon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #102 on: May 31, 2023, 03:56:59 PM »

We have to go back to the example of a village full of born blind people. Light is everywhere but they are unable to notice it.

Do you realize that no one noticed gravity for thousands of years till Newton came along?

I think they might have noticed that things that go up tend to come down again and that a fall from 20 feet tended to be more injurious than a fall from just 3 feet - even if they didn't understand why.

That they didn't call it 'gravity' or have any understanding of, say, the mathematics of acceleration doesn't mean that they didn't 'notice' the phenomena we now call 'gravity'.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #103 on: May 31, 2023, 04:04:31 PM »
Do you realize that no one noticed gravity for thousands of years till Newton came along?
Complete and utter non-sense.

Everyone noticed gravity as it was what kept them on the ground. What Newton did was attempt to understand and explain its mechanism - that is entirely different from a situation where no-one had noticed it before.

Nearly Sane

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #104 on: May 31, 2023, 04:08:01 PM »
That bastard Newton. Until he came along everyone floated.

Enki

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #105 on: May 31, 2023, 04:11:05 PM »

We have to go back to the example of a village full of born blind people. Light is everywhere but they are unable to notice it.

Do you realize that no one noticed gravity for thousands of years till Newton came along?

Don't be silly, Sriram, there have been many theories relating to gravity from Aristotle onwards, including, by the way, an Indian astronomer of the 7th Century.
As for your tired 'blind people and light' allusion, that has been done to death on this board, even though you stubbornly stick to it. :D
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Nearly Sane

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #106 on: May 31, 2023, 04:11:43 PM »
And as for Darwin! He wiped out the crocoducks!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 04:13:44 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #107 on: May 31, 2023, 04:13:12 PM »
Einstein, prick. Before him light could go as fast as it wanted to

Nearly Sane

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #108 on: May 31, 2023, 04:17:39 PM »
And don't get me started on that mass feckin murderer Pasteur. Before him everyone lived for ages but his germ theory killed billions.

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #109 on: May 31, 2023, 04:26:01 PM »
Complete and utter non-sense.

Everyone noticed gravity as it was what kept them on the ground. What Newton did was attempt to understand and explain its mechanism - that is entirely different from a situation where no-one had noticed it before.


No...no one noticed gravity. They just took it for granted. No one questioned why they stayed on the ground or why things fell down (except some philosophers and thinkers perhaps).  Probably there are even today many tribals and such others who do not think about why they stay on the ground. 

The point is that we need to be taught about gravity. 

The evidence is there all along but no one notices.

Nearly Sane

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #110 on: May 31, 2023, 04:34:21 PM »

No...no one noticed gravity. They just took it for granted. No one questioned why they stayed on the ground or why things fell down (except some philosophers and thinkers perhaps).  Probably there are even today many tribals and such others who do not think about why they stay on the ground. 

The point is that we need to be taught about gravity. 

The evidence is there all along but no one notices.

99.99 % of life we all take for granted. If we didn't we would be dead. Writing no one questioned something apart from the people that questioned it is a spectacular own goal.


Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #111 on: May 31, 2023, 04:37:29 PM »
99.99 % of life we all take for granted. If we didn't we would be dead. Writing no one questioned something apart from the people that questioned it is a spectacular own goal.

'Writing no one questioned something apart from the people that questioned it is a spectacular own goal'.

Now...that's a own goal I think! :D

Nearly Sane

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #112 on: May 31, 2023, 04:40:35 PM »
'Writing no one questioned something apart from the people that questioned it is a spectacular own goal'.

Now...that's a own goal I think! :D
You appear to have no understanding of the term 'no one'.

No one ever played football apart from the people who played football

No one ever left their home town apart from the people who left their home town

No one ever breathed apart from the people that breathed

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #113 on: May 31, 2023, 04:48:44 PM »
No...no one noticed gravity. They just took it for granted.
Yes they did - you don't seem to understand that noticing something and taking it for granted aren't the same thing. Actually I cannot see how you can take something for granted if you aren't aware it exists - in order to take something for granted you need to have an awareness of its existence in the first place.

And there were plenty of people who not only noticed gravity before Newton, but not only didn't take it for granted but used it. For example armies who positioned themselves at the top of a hill, or used gravity to allow spears etc to fly and fly further due to trajectory. How about people who used water wheels for power. All not just noticing gravity but making use of it.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #114 on: May 31, 2023, 04:51:21 PM »
The point is that we need to be taught about gravity. 
Are you on a totally separate planet Sriram.

So what happens if we aren't taught gravity? Does it cease to exist? Do we just float away? Of course not - nothing changes whatsoever except that in an anthropocentric fashion we wouldn't understand its mechanisms. That doesn't, of course, mean that we wouldn't be aware of it - we would, we just wouldn't understand it.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #115 on: May 31, 2023, 04:55:27 PM »
The evidence is there all along but no one notices.
You really don't understand the difference between the evidence and understanding the mechanism, do you Sriram.

The evidence (that we didn't float off) was always there and everyone noticed (pretty well all the time) regardless of whether we understood the mechanisms or we didn't.

That we might have taken it for granted that we weren't about to float off is a completely separate matter to noticing that we didn't.

Maeght

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #116 on: May 31, 2023, 07:12:56 PM »

We have to go back to the example of a village full of born blind people. Light is everywhere but they are unable to notice it.

Do you realize that no one noticed gravity for thousands of years till Newton came along?

Of course they noticed gravity.

torridon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #117 on: May 31, 2023, 09:26:24 PM »
Einstein, prick. Before him light could go as fast as it wanted to

 :D  :D

Outrider

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #118 on: May 31, 2023, 10:54:33 PM »
We have to go back to the example of a village full of born blind people. Light is everywhere but they are unable to notice it.

In a village of blind people, though, you could set up a simple photometer to register the light and play a tone. What you're suggesting is that there's a village of blind people and you're trying to convince them that there are ghosts, and then putting the fact that they don't accept your claims down to the fact that they're blind, not the fact that you can't demonstrate the ghosts.

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Do you realize that no one noticed gravity for thousands of years till Newton came along?

You could tell by all the first hand accounts of people floating off into space in the 1500s... people noticed the effects of gravity, they didn't rationalise an explanation. You have exactly the opposite, you have an explanation desperately looking for a phenomenon to be attached to.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #119 on: June 01, 2023, 06:04:39 AM »
Ha..Ha..Ha!

I am amazed at the way you people manage to skirt around the issue making inane comments.....and how you supposedly intelligent people, don't understand the basic point that is being made.

Noticing that we don't fly off the ground is not the same as noticing gravity. They are two different things. Everyone knew that we don't fly off the ground but no one knew why we don't fly off the ground or why things fall down.

No one knew that there was any force or field or whatever, that was keeping us on the ground....in spite of the fact that it was a basic part of life on earth, experienced by everyone.

The idea of gravity did not come about because someone produced the evidence at that point of time. The evidence was here all along but was noticed and examined only at that point.

It is a natural and all encompassing aspect of nature but which no one was aware of. Some individual thinkers might have suspected the existence of some kind of a force but that was neither here nor there.

Similar to this is the existence of bacteria and viruses that no one knew of, even though everyone fell ill and got infected. It required technology to catch up.   

There was plenty of evidence for both gravity and microbes but no one knew of these things till someone discovered them and made the necessary connection between the phenomenon and the cause.

This shows that evidence may be available all around us and we might experience something everyday but we might still not notice it or make the necessary connection to formulate a suitable hypothesis. 

Claiming that evidence is not available is often not correct. Evidence may be there but most of us just may not see it.   

Grow up guys!  ::)






   
« Last Edit: June 01, 2023, 06:20:47 AM by Sriram »

Gordon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #120 on: June 01, 2023, 07:12:25 AM »
Evidence may be there but most of us just may not see it.   

You've got yourself mixed up.

There has been consistent evidence of the effects of gravity since time immemorial - 'what goes up must come down' was as true for the inhabitants of Skara Brae some 5,000 years ago as it is for us today, it's just that today we also now have an explanation for gravity - but the evidence for it was always there, in the sense of its consistent effects. However, if there is no strong, consistent and repeatable evidence for something, or a theory on which investigations can be based, then there can be no supplementary explanation since there is then no sound evidence from which an explanation can be derived and tested.

What you are essentially saying is that there is maybe evidence for stuff but that we can't see it yet - that is true, since there may be 'unknown unknowns', but you are over-reaching when you claim, say, that 'reincarnation' is believable even if there is yet no sound evidence to support it. Your "most of us just may not see it" gives the game away, since it implies that only special people can detect and understand this evidence or are prepared to just accept that there must be undetectable evidence for their claim in order to maintain their faith in the likes of 'reincarnation': among other flaws, that approach is confirmation bias writ large.   

Sound evidence, or a testable theory, is a prerequisite for any subsequent verifiable explanation and to think otherwise is just wishful/magical thinking, and especially so when accompanied by handwaving about the methods of science being inadequate but where, crucially, no alternative method is ever proposed. To maintain certain claims in that context is a characteristic of woo.


Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #121 on: June 01, 2023, 07:29:14 AM »
You've got yourself mixed up.

There has been consistent evidence of the effects of gravity since time immemorial - 'what goes up must come down' was as true for the inhabitants of Skara Brae some 5,000 years ago as it is for us today, it's just that today we also now have an explanation for gravity - but the evidence for it was always there, in the sense of its consistent effects. However, if there is no strong, consistent and repeatable evidence for something, or a theory on which investigations can be based, then there can be no supplementary explanation since there is then no sound evidence from which an explanation can be derived and tested.

No...I am not mixed up.   In fact what you are saying is precisely what I am saying. Evidence has been available for gravity from time immemorial but no one realized that there was some kind of a force or field or whatever, that was keeping us on the ground.  It was just a normal part of life and everyone just carried on the same way animals and birds run and fly etc.

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What you are essentially saying is that there is maybe evidence for stuff but that we can't see it yet - that is true, since there may be 'unknown unknowns', but you are over-reaching when you claim, say, that 'reincarnation' is believable even if there is yet no sound evidence to support it. Your "most of us just may not see it" gives the game away, since it implies that only special people can detect and understand this evidence or are prepared to just accept that there must be undetectable evidence for their claim in order to maintain their faith in the likes of 'reincarnation': among other flaws, that approach is confirmation bias writ large.

There is no game here. There are naturally occurring phenomena that require special abilities ...just as eyes are required to detect light. If we don't have that faculty we cannot detect that aspect of reality. As simple as that.       

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Sound evidence, or a testable theory, is a prerequisite for any subsequent verifiable explanation and to think otherwise is just wishful/magical thinking, and especially so when accompanied by handwaving about the methods of science being inadequate but where, crucially, no alternative method is ever proposed. To maintain certain claims in that context is a characteristic of woo.

Physically tests are possible only for certain phenomena not for all aspects of reality. Lot of real things may not be physically testable. We just have to experience them and take a philosophical view.

Gordon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #122 on: June 01, 2023, 08:16:19 AM »
 
Physically tests are possible only for certain phenomena not for all aspects of reality. Lot of real things may not be physically testable. We just have to experience them and take a philosophical view.

Which is insufficient if you are proposing 'reincarnation' as an objective fact: in reality your belief in reincarnation is just as much a faith claim as Christians who believe that a dead person didn't stay dead. Neither claim can be justified by method and evidence.

Outrider

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #123 on: June 01, 2023, 09:15:42 AM »
I am amazed at the way you people manage to skirt around the issue making inane comments.....and how you supposedly intelligent people, don't understand the basic point that is being made.

There is a well-regarded school of thought (I know you're not strong on those, but bear with me) which says that if a large group of people have failed to appreciate what you, as a communicator, are trying to convey, the fault lies with your communication not with their understanding.

As it is, I think by and large we do understand what you're saying, we're just not accepting that what you're saying is right.i

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Noticing that we don't fly off the ground is not the same as noticing gravity. They are two different things.

Really? What is the other thing that makes people hit the ground when they fail to walk, correctly. Your suggestion that people were unaware of the notion of gravity and its effects before Newton is belied by, amongst other simple things, the Greek myth of Daedalus and Icarus - if things don't fall, why do you need artificial wings to fly?

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Everyone knew that we don't fly off the ground but no one knew why we don't fly off the ground or why things fall down. No one knew that there was any force or field or whatever, that was keeping us on the ground....in spite of the fact that it was a basic part of life on earth, experienced by everyone.

Not knowing why something happens is not the same as not knowing that it happens. If this is your understanding, no-one knew about gravity until Einstein, because Newton was fundamentally wrong about gravitation when he considered it an attractive force not understanding that it's a mass-induced warping of space-time.

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The idea of gravity did not come about because someone produced the evidence at that point of time. The evidence was here all along but was noticed and examined only at that point.

Not just examined it, not just hypothesised about a potential causitive mechanism AND TESTED THAT HYPOTHESIS. It's not science to spout possibilities, it's science to test those ideas and to either validate or refute them.

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It is a natural and all encompassing aspect of nature but which no one was aware of.

Again, having an explanation isn't what's required for awareness. Do you think no-one realised the sky was blue until Lord Rayleigh came along?

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Some individual thinkers might have suspected the existence of some kind of a force but that was neither here nor there.

Ironic that you should pick Newton and gravity to try to make this stance, given that Newton famously quoted the far less well-known Bernard of Chartres in saying 'If I have seen far it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants'. Newton knew that his discovery was just one more iterative step in a series of works by eminent, hard-working, insightful experts.

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Similar to this is the existence of bacteria and viruses that no one knew of, even though everyone fell ill and got infected. It required technology to catch up.   

There was plenty of evidence for both gravity and microbes but no one knew of these things till someone discovered them and made the necessary connection between the phenomenon and the cause.

Nobody knew of the mechanisms, but as much I'm pretty sure people understood the idea of falling, you can be damned sure that the Black Death made sure they understood diseases existed, if nothing else. (I'm aware early forms of the germ theory of disease were formulated in the 1500s, but they weren't widely accepted).

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This shows that evidence may be available all around us and we might experience something everyday but we might still not notice it or make the necessary connection to formulate a suitable hypothesis.

Absolutely. However, you are not citing a like for like - you're trying to compare the 'no theory promulgated' history of gravitation before Newton and his insights against the massively well-defined, researched and understood entire field of science that is evolutionary biology with your personal incredulity and wish to try to wedge something spiritual into it without understanding either evolutionary biology or spirituality well enough to make it creditable.

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Claiming that evidence is not available is often not correct. Evidence may be there but most of us just may not see it.

If some people can't see it then what you have is not evidence, it's a claim. Evidence is, it is a phenomenon. What people can't 'see' is the evidence you provide leading to the conclusion you're coming to, and that's because the 'evidence' you're bringing is not testable. It's not that you're definitively wrong, it's that there is insufficient reason to accept your claims as correct: there isn't a gap in the current understanding that needs filling; there aren't elements we don't understand for which your woo claims are the best explanation; and, most importantly, neither you nor anyone else is providing any means by which these claims can be tested.   

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Grow up guys!  ::)

Always good to round off a failure to argue effectively with an ad hominem. Straight back at ya.

O.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2023, 10:11:45 AM by Outrider »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #124 on: June 01, 2023, 09:17:02 AM »
Noticing that we don't fly off the ground is not the same as noticing gravity. They are two different things. Everyone knew that we don't fly off the ground but no one knew why we don't fly off the ground or why things fall down.
You are confusing the phenomenon with the mechanism. People always know about the phenomenon, they noticed the phenomenon, they used the phenomenon in all sorts of ways and needed to take into account the phenomenon in all sorts of ways.

Sure they might not have understood the mechanism - but that isn't something you 'notice' but something you have knowledge about. What you 'notice' is the phenomenon itself.