Author Topic: A new approach to evolution  (Read 11351 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2023, 05:12:06 PM »
Outy,

Quote
...but you've lowered yourself to the level of Michael Gove.

Ouch!
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Udayana

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2023, 05:15:49 PM »
Jerry Coyne is not just a blogger, he is an evolutionary biologist with an acclaimed book on the subject to his name. When he says "Noble is wrong" it's not because Noble's ideas are unconventional but because the evidence tells us Noble is wrong.

I expect Coyne is both generally knowledgeable and at the top of his field. But in his blog he is attacking ideology rather than science. He is not disputing actual results put forward by Noble, (either his own or earlier results by others) but attacking Nobles interpretation of the results - even, it seems to me, straw-manning to some extent on some of the points - though Noble does himself no favours by pushing philosophical positions.

Whether there can be inheritance of acquired characteristics or not can be decided by a single validated result - but the argument about whether this can be adaptive or not, important or not, long lasting or not, or how this affects evolution and so on, is currently a battle of words rather than facts.   

Again, reminds of all the various arguments about multi-regional vs out-of-Africa human evolution or whether Neandertals were able to breed with modern humans or not. All resolved in the end by actual data.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2023, 05:52:46 AM »
Yes, let's listen to the uninitiated or partly-educated rather than the 'experts' with their 'evidence' and 'well established and evidenced science'. You realise that, and I'm sorry to have to say this, but you've lowered yourself to the level of Michael Gove.

Except in every single well-evidenced piece of research into evolution. Except for the mountains of evidence that we have, yes.

It's like the way people place too much emphasis on gravitational effects when it comes to things hitting the planet, and why they can't therefore realise the truth of intelligent falling. It's not a failing to see what's causing something and focus on it.

Denis Noble is a great cardiologist, and when he does cardiology he's using science. He's not a great evolutionary biologist, and when he does evolutionary biology he's using logical fallacies and personal incredulity. The argument fails on its merits, not on whether it's proffered by Denis Noble.

O.


Experts may know a lot about something small but they lack a vision of the overall picture generally.  They focus so much on the nose or the eye that they never see the face. They are unreliable while taking a philosophical position and to present a big picture view. They just don't have the zoom-out view. 

You are comparing too many natural phenomena such as gravity and the water cycle with evolution. This is not correct. Evolution has direction, development, change and complexity with plenty of emergent properties arising all along.






« Last Edit: May 18, 2023, 06:01:09 AM by Sriram »

Gordon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2023, 06:55:19 AM »

Experts may know a lot about something small but they lack a vision of the overall picture generally.  They focus so much on the nose or the eye that they never see the face. They are unreliable while taking a philosophical position and to present a big picture view. They just don't have the zoom-out view.

Perhaps that is just as well - perhaps it is possible to 'zoom out' too far when it comes to being competent at gathering sound evidence and coming to reasoned and justified interpretations of that evidence. From too far a distance a 'big picture' may be insufficiently detailed and brings risks of mistakes and misinerpretations that may also encourage magical thinking: perhaps that is why woo merchants like the 'big picture' approach and dislike approaches that are more disciplined and methodological.     

Quote
You are comparing too many natural phenomena such as gravity and the water cycle with evolution. This is not correct. Evolution has direction, development, change and complexity with plenty of emergent properties arising all along.

Depends on what you mean by 'direction': it's important not to conflate that term with 'directed'.

torridon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2023, 07:10:27 AM »

Experts may know a lot about something small but they lack a vision of the overall picture generally.  They focus so much on the nose or the eye that they never see the face. They are unreliable while taking a philosophical position and to present a big picture view. They just don't have the zoom-out view. 


Whereas on the other hand if you fly too high, you can lose sight of the detail and end up constructing some grand narrative that does not respect the (inconvenient) facts on the ground.

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2023, 07:29:33 AM »


I am not saying that expertise is not required in the world. There are specific people for that. That is fine.

Point is that we cannot expect an 'expert' or specialist to take a overall view. His view is likely to be microscopic and detailed, without the necessary vision required.

There are different people who can be relied upon to take a big picture view....who are capable of a zoom-out view
 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2023, 08:10:06 AM »

I am not saying that expertise is not required in the world. There are specific people for that. That is fine.

Point is that we cannot expect an 'expert' or specialist to take a overall view. His view is likely to be microscopic and detailed, without the necessary vision required.

There are different people who can be relied upon to take a big picture view....who are capable of a zoom-out view
Just non-sense on stilts - if you have no understanding of aspects of the details then you are no position to take a wider view on the truth. And why on earth do you think that experts in a particular aspect of a topic are worse at taking a 'big-picture' view than people with no expertise.

Leaving things to those without expertise rather than experts (which let's face it is another name for people with evidence-based knowledge), leads to ignorance of or ignoring of actual evidence and 'explanations' that are completely false - anyone for sun moving around the earth, creation in 6 days, infections due to bad air etc etc.

Sure experts will have expertise in a particular area, but if you want the best approach to getting to the big picture then bring together a groups of people with complementary expertise, not a hypothetical 'big picture' person. And that groups may well conclude from pooling their expertise that we currently don't have sufficient evidence to be fully convinced of the 'big picture' - but much better to recognise your lack of expertise and the need to know more rather than have 'big picture' certainty based on lack of evidence.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2023, 09:17:03 AM »
There are different people who can be relied upon to take a big picture view....who are capable of a zoom-out view
And who exactly are these non-expert experts - knowing nothing of the detail but expert in the 'zoomed-out view'. Oh do you really mean religious and spiritual leaders Sriram. In which case they are just as much 'experts' in their little mini-microcosm as, for example, scientific experts. The difference being that the latter actually based their expertise on evidence and knowledge while the former base theirs on un-evidenced faith.

I know who I'd rather rely on to give a zoomed out view on the origins of the universe between a theoretical physicist and Catholic priest, or on the evolution of species on earth between an evolutionary biologist and a yogi.

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2023, 09:39:02 AM »


I didn't bring in religion at all. You are bringing it in.

The over all view is not just a matter of putting together all the microscopic details. It is a matter of a different perspective with a great degree of synergy.

Secondly, there are many other aspects of life  that are not covered by any of the experts in the different fields of science.  It requires insight and a philosophical  mind to include these in the big picture. These 'exotic' elements need to be taken into account even to understand the basis of the physical sciences and the objective of evolution itself. The 'why' question, in other words.

Outrider

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2023, 09:41:47 AM »
Experts may know a lot about something small but they lack a vision of the overall picture generally.  They focus so much on the nose or the eye that they never see the face.

Unlikely, experts usually have a better understanding of the context in which their discipline sits than the layman, but regardless of that you aren't alleging that they can't see the woods because they're too focussed on the tree, you're alleging that they're so focussed on the tree that they don't understand what a tree is. You are saying that the evolutionary biologists shouldn't be listened to regarding evolutionary biology because of a cardiologist. Think about that for just a moment.

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They are unreliable while taking a philosophical position and to present a big picture view.

But you aren't talking philosophy, you're suggesting that they don't have the science right, that their description of the mechanisms of evolution are wrong.

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They just don't have the zoom-out view.

The zoom out view that you've failed to demonstrate. Why should they dribble down your rabbit-hole of unsubstantiated assertions? 

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You are comparing too many natural phenomena such as gravity and the water cycle with evolution. This is not correct. Evolution has direction, development, change and complexity with plenty of emergent properties arising all along.

Evolution does not appear to have direction, development is a subjective idea. Evolution IS change.

Complexity, again - how are you attempting to measure that? Is the banana more complex than the tomato? Is the sea urchin (with its phenotypic plasticity) more complex than bacteria? Emergent properties are part and parcel of evolutionary biology.

You've got nothing but incredulity and the fact that science isn't finished yet, and you're trying to revamp primitive superstition as 'post-science' woo to fill a gap that's in your understanding rather than in the incredibly well evidenced science.

O.
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Enki

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2023, 10:08:29 AM »
Sriram,

If you really believe in the 'zoom out' view, then rather than simply selecting one view which seems to go some way in backing your own ideas(e.g. Denis Noble), wouldn't it be a good idea to actually get a grasp of all the various strands which are current and look at them with an open mind.

To this end, I suggest you read this recent summary of where evolutionary theory stands today which I think is an excellent attempt to bring all the prominent players and all the competing ideas together. If you truly believe in an 'overall view' you will read this in its entirety. Put your money where your mouth is.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jun/28/do-we-need-a-new-theory-of-evolution
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2023, 10:12:37 AM »
I didn't bring in religion at all. You are bringing it in.
So who exactly are these - non-expert experts. In other words with no expertise on the detail but sufficiently expert on 'zoomed out' for us to take notice of them.

To posit a 'zoomed-out' view without an understanding of the detail is to build a castle on quicksand.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2023, 10:15:54 AM »
The over all view is not just a matter of putting together all the microscopic details.
Really?!? I think it is exactly that, albeit needs to consider all the scale-lengths.

It is a matter of a different perspective with a great degree of synergy.
Which a detailed understanding will, of course, address. The issues of interactions, whether synergetic or otherwise, feedback, feedforward etc etc is very much part of understanding the detail.

Without an understanding of the detail how on earth can you even begin to get a grip on higher level complexities that involve complex interactions.

Gordon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2023, 10:31:08 AM »

I didn't bring in religion at all. You are bringing it in.

The over all view is not just a matter of putting together all the microscopic details. It is a matter of a different perspective with a great degree of synergy.

Secondly, there are many other aspects of life  that are not covered by any of the experts in the different fields of science.  It requires insight and a philosophical  mind to include these in the big picture. These 'exotic' elements need to be taken into account even to understand the basis of the physical sciences and the objective of evolution itself. The 'why' question, in other words.

Have you considered that some 'why' questions are instinsically invalid (being examples of begging the question)?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2023, 10:51:20 AM »
Have you considered that some 'why' questions are instinsically invalid (being examples of begging the question)?
And also achingly anthropocentric.

Udayana

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2023, 11:10:53 AM »
Every 5 year old knows "why" questions lead nowhere. At first the answers are all answers to "how" questions, as you go on, the answers are just speculation or imaginings - a collection of ex post facto stories.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

jeremyp

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2023, 11:31:28 AM »
I expect Coyne is both generally knowledgeable and at the top of his field. But in his blog he is attacking ideology rather than science. He is not disputing actual results put forward by Noble, (either his own or earlier results by others) but attacking Nobles interpretation of the results - even, it seems to me, straw-manning to some extent on some of the points - though Noble does himself no favours by pushing philosophical positions.
Noble's interpretation that is scientifically wrong. Did you read the posted article?
Quote
Whether there can be inheritance of acquired characteristics or not can be decided by a single validated result - but the argument about whether this can be adaptive or not, important or not, long lasting or not, or how this affects evolution and so on, is currently a battle of words rather than facts.   

Experimental results tell us that inheritance of acquired characteristics does not happen. Experimental results tell us that epigenetic effects don't last more than a few generations.
Quote
Again, reminds of all the various arguments about multi-regional vs out-of-Africa human evolution or whether Neandertals were able to breed with modern humans or not. All resolved in the end by actual data.
 

I think I'll call this the "out of the box" fallacy. "Controversial idea x was right, therefore you can't dismiss controversial idea y that I am emotionally invested in."
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Udayana

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2023, 12:21:04 PM »
Noble's interpretation that is scientifically wrong. Did you read the posted article?
Experimental results tell us that inheritance of acquired characteristics does not happen. Experimental results tell us that epigenetic effects don't last more than a few generations.
I think I'll call this the "out of the box" fallacy. "Controversial idea x was right, therefore you can't dismiss controversial idea y that I am emotionally invested in."

Yes, of-course I read it - which of Noble's ideas is scientifically wrong? 

Epigenetic effects are "acquired characteristics" and are inherited,  possibly over a couple of generations. And, as with genetic assimilation, could, probabilistically lead to longer term adaptations - we don't any have any evidence in support of that, so it is discounted.

It is not that a controversial idea can't be dismissed because of previous ideas that were shown to be right, but that you can't dismiss a falsifiable idea until you have evidence that shows it is wrong. Of-course, you can't make claims based on it until you do have evidence in support.
   
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

jeremyp

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2023, 02:25:24 PM »
Yes, of-course I read it - which of Noble's ideas is scientifically wrong? 

FTA

Quote

1. Mutations are not random
2. Acquired characteristics can be inherited
3. The gene-centered view of evolution is wrong [This is connected with #2.]
4. Evolution is not a gradual gene-by-gene process but is macromutational.
5. Scientists have not been able to create new species in the lab or greenhouse, and we haven’t seen speciation occurring in nature.

All wrong except number 2 which Jerry characterises as irrelevant.
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Epigenetic effects are "acquired characteristics" and are inherited,  possibly over a couple of generations.
But they are not adaptive. They go away.

Quote
you can't dismiss a falsifiable idea until you have evidence that shows it is wrong. Of-course, you can't make claims based on it until you do have evidence in support.
And most of Noble's ideas in this respect are known to be wrong.
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Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2023, 04:29:00 PM »
Sriram,

If you really believe in the 'zoom out' view, then rather than simply selecting one view which seems to go some way in backing your own ideas(e.g. Denis Noble), wouldn't it be a good idea to actually get a grasp of all the various strands which are current and look at them with an open mind.

To this end, I suggest you read this recent summary of where evolutionary theory stands today which I think is an excellent attempt to bring all the prominent players and all the competing ideas together. If you truly believe in an 'overall view' you will read this in its entirety. Put your money where your mouth is.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jun/28/do-we-need-a-new-theory-of-evolution


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jun/28/do-we-need-a-new-theory-of-evolution

Enki...thanks a lot. Your link is one of the most useful ones I have seen yet. You probably didn't mean it to be so but all the same... Thanks once again!

The article points out all the quibbles and conflicts and personal attacks within the evolutionary research community and also brings out how much disagreement is there about the modern synthesis. 

I want to provide excerpts from the article....where do I start...?!! Well...here goes

*************

A new wave of scientists argues that mainstream evolutionary theory needs an urgent overhaul.

Strange as it sounds, scientists still do not know the answers to some of the most basic questions about how life on Earth evolved.

“The first eye, the first wing, the first placenta. How they emerge. Explaining these is the foundational motivation of evolutionary biology,” says Armin Moczek, a biologist at Indiana University. “And yet, we still do not have a good answer. This classic idea of gradual change, one happy accident at a time, has so far fallen flat.”

In 2014, eight scientists took up this challenge, publishing an article in the leading journal Nature that asked “Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?” Their answer was: “Yes, urgently.” ........from the study of the way organisms alter their environment in order to reduce the normal pressure of natural selection – think of beavers building dams – to new research showing that chemical modifications added to DNA during our lifetimes can be passed on to our offspring. The authors called for a new understanding of evolution that could make room for such discoveries. The name they gave this new framework was rather bland – the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis (EES)

Behind the current battle over evolution lies a broken dream. From today’s vantage point, it seems obvious that Darwin’s theory of evolution – a simple, elegant theory that explains how one force, natural selection, came to shape the entire development of life on Earth – would play the role of the great unifier. But at the turn of the 20th century, four decades after the publication of On the Origin of Species and two after his death, Darwin’s ideas were in decline.

One major problem was that it lacked an explanation of heredity. Reproduction appeared to remix genes – the mysterious units that programme the physical traits we end up seeing – in surprising ways. Think of the way a grandfather’s red hair, absent in his son, might reappear in his granddaughter. How was natural selection meant to function when its tiny variations might not even reliably pass from parent to offspring every time?

If another force, apart from natural selection, could also explain the differences we see between living things, Darwin wrote in On the Origin of Species, his whole theory of life would “utterly break down”.

The modern synthesis arrived at just the right time. While information piled up at a rate that no scientist could fully digest, the steady thrum of the modern synthesis ran through it all.

From the start, there had always been dissenters. In 1959, the developmental biologist CH Waddington lamented that the modern synthesis had sidelined valuable theories in favour of “drastic simplifications which are liable to lead us to a false picture of how the evolutionary process works”.

... they found that natural selection was not the all-powerful force that many had assumed it to be. According to the modern synthesis, even if mutations turned out to be common, natural selection would, over time, still be the primary cause of change, preserving the useful mutations and junking the useless ones. But that isn’t what was happening. The genes were changing – that is, evolving – but natural selection wasn’t playing a part. Some genetic changes were being preserved for no reason apart from pure chance. Natural selection seemed to be asleep at the wheel.

Theodosius Dobzhansky. He was visibly distraught at the “non-Darwinian evolution” that some scientists were now proposing. “If this were so, evolution would have hardly any meaning, and would not be going anywhere in particular,” he said. “This is not simply a quibble among specialists. To a man looking for the meaning of his existence, evolution by natural selection makes sense.” Where once Christians had complained that Darwin’s theory made life meaningless, now Darwinists levelled the same complaint at scientists who contradicted Darwin.

Other biologists simply found that the modern synthesis had little relevance to their work. As the study of life increased in complexity, a theory based on which genes were selected in various environments started to seem beside the point. It didn’t help answer questions such as how life emerged from the seas, or how complex organs, such as the placenta, developed.

Perhaps the biggest change from the theory’s mid-century glory days is that its most ambitious claims – that simply by understanding genes and natural selection, we can understand all life on earth – have been dropped, or now come weighted with caveats and exceptions. This shift has occurred with little fanfare.

Laland and his fellow proponents of the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis, the EES, call for a new way of thinking about evolution.... Ultimately, they want their sub-fields – plasticity, evolutionary development, epigenetics, cultural evolution – not just recognised, but formalised in the canon of biology.

The geneticist Eva Jablonka has proclaimed herself a neo-Lamarckist, after Jean-Baptiste Lamarck,

The case for EES rests on a simple claim: in the past few decades, we have learned many remarkable things about the natural world – and these things should be given space in biology’s core theory. One of the most fascinating recent areas of research is known as plasticity,

Standen told me. According to the traditional theory of evolution, this kind of change takes millions of years. But, says Armin Moczek, an extended synthesis proponent, the Senegal bichir “is adapting to land in a single generation”.

The crucial thing about such observations, which challenge the traditional understanding of evolution, is that these sudden developments all come from the same underlying genes.

"Plasticity is perhaps what sparks the rudimentary form of a novel trait,” says Pfennig.

To some scientists, though, the battle between traditionalists and extended synthesists is futile. Not only is it impossible to make sense of modern biology, they say, it is unnecessary. Over the past decade the influential biochemist Ford Doolittle has published essays rubbishing the idea that the life sciences need codification. “We don’t need no friggin’ new synthesis. We didn’t even really need the old synthesis,” he told me.

Eugene Koonin thinks people should get used to theories not fitting together. Unification is a mirage. “In my view there is no – can be no – single theory of evolution,”

************

I think all of you should read the full article.






Enki

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2023, 05:37:38 PM »

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jun/28/do-we-need-a-new-theory-of-evolution

Enki...thanks a lot. Your link is one of the most useful ones I have seen yet. You probably didn't mean it to be so but all the same... Thanks once again!

...............................


Oh I did, Sriram, in the full knowledge that you would quite understandably cherry pick the parts that you think support your ideas. However, I read it as a whole and as such I find it very informative. There is much to digest from the ideas of the early mutationists, through the trajectory of the modern synthesis and into the ideas of the proponents of the extended evolutionary synthesis to the idea that we simply continue building on the insights of Darwin including those who emphasised the importance of randomness and mutation. I'm glad you liked it. ;D
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Udayana

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2023, 06:06:24 PM »
FTA

All wrong except number 2 which Jerry characterises as irrelevant.But they are not adaptive. They go away.
And most of Noble's ideas in this respect are known to be wrong.

It takes a lot of time to go into each of those wrong claims, but could make a start with the first:
"Mutations are not random".

This is Coyne (from his earlier blog post):

Quote
1. Mutations are not random.  This is a central tenet of evolutionary biology, which Noble says has now been disproven. It hasn’t. He argues that there are mutational hotspots in the genome, and that mutation rates can change in response to the condition of the organism or its environment.

That is true, but says nothing about the randomness of mutations. What we mean by “random” is that mutations occur regardless of whether they would be good for the organism. That is, the chances of an adaptive mutation occurring is not increased if the environment changes in a way that would favor that mutation.  The word “random” does not, to evolutionists, mean that every gene has the same chance of mutating, nor that mutation rates can’t be affected by other things. What it means is that mutation is not somehow adjusted so that good mutations crop up just when they would be advantageous. My friend Paul Sniegowski, a professor at Penn, uses the term “indifferent” instead of “random,” and I think that’s a better way to describe the neo-Darwinian view of mutations.

And there are no experiments—none—showing that mutations are not indifferent, and plenty showing they are. In other words, Noble’s characterization of neo-Darwinism’s error is simply misguided.

Noble claims that "Mutations are not random" as mutations are not evenly distributed across the genome - because of the structure of the genome mutations occur more often in certain places than others. Coyne agrees this is true, but then, righty, goes on criticise the general claim - but it turns out to be a matter of wording rather than a disagreement on fact. 

If Noble then went on say that this due to some conscious (or unconscious) effort on the part of the mutating organism - that would obviously be nonsense. But he doesn't. It is just that the biology involved is more complex than we previously thought; a mechanism that causes faster mutation in particular areas rather than others has itself evolved. The actual individual mutations are of-course random - but the organism incorporates a stochastic (ie. random) process as part of its survival mechanism.
   
In fact there is growing body of work identifying this effect in different organisms (podcast and link to article here: Genome mutations may be less random than previously thought if you can access it.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Outrider

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2023, 09:10:11 AM »
Oh I did, Sriram, in the full knowledge that you would quite understandably cherry pick the parts that you think support your ideas. However, I read it as a whole and as such I find it very informative.

It's almost like you're suggesting that a non-expert needs to not focus on particular details, but rather needs to zoom out and see things in a broader context....  ::)

O.
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Gordon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2023, 09:47:44 AM »
It's almost like you're suggesting that a non-expert needs to not focus on particular details, but rather needs to zoom out and see things in a broader context....  ::)

O.

Perhaps from a 'zoomed-out' distance some find it hard, due to their biases, to avoid conflating woo and science, and since they prefer not too look to closely at any details they can still cling to the woo and pretend it is as robust as science while avoiding those pesky problems of method and evidence that are intrinsic to sound science; they offer no equally sound equivalents but they do have lots of incredulity and lashings of magical thinking.

jeremyp

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2023, 11:42:46 AM »

Noble claims that "Mutations are not random" as mutations are not evenly distributed across the genome - because of the structure of the genome mutations occur more often in certain places than others. Coyne agrees this is true, but then, righty, goes on criticise the general claim - but it turns out to be a matter of wording rather than a disagreement on fact. 
You're claiming that Noble is right in but only in an absolutely trivial sense that doesn't have any effect on evolution. I think that's hair splitting.
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