Author Topic: A new approach to evolution  (Read 12364 times)

ekim

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2023, 11:58:46 AM »
Perhaps from a 'zoomed-out' distance some find it hard, due to their biases, to avoid conflating woo and science, and since they prefer not too look to closely at any details they can still cling to the woo and pretend it is as robust as science while avoiding those pesky problems of method and evidence that are intrinsic to sound science; they offer no equally sound equivalents but they do have lots of incredulity and lashings of magical thinking.
Relax!  The Doctor Woo series is coming back soon.

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2023, 06:25:48 AM »
Hi everyone....what happened? All quiet on the western front!

With reference to my post no 44 about Enki's link.....there have been no verbal abuses, no mud slinging, no.... 'that guy is an idiot....the other guy is not an expert....this guy is a Christian....that website has religious afflictions.... we know all these things anyway'.... and so on.... 

I don't wish to rub it in....but that article does take the wind off your sails somewhat! 

Certain things are clear...

1. The theory of evolution (modern synthesis) is far from accepted by all experts.

2. Natural Selection is a metaphor and not as fundamental as earlier supposed. Of course, traits that enable an organism to survive and reproduce in a specific environment will  obviously  get passed on.....but it is not quite as simple as that.

3. How novel traits arise is not known.

4. Mechanisms such as Epigenetics and Plasticity are probably much more important and fundamental in evolution.

5. Lamarckism needs to be reconsidered.

6. Certain changes in organisms happen within a single generation.

Interesting! 




« Last Edit: May 20, 2023, 06:27:53 AM by Sriram »

torridon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2023, 07:10:07 AM »
Well,

1. The modern synthesis is not a hypothesis to be accepted or rejected
2. Wrong
3. Wrong.
4. More important than what ?
5. Not really
6. Environmetal influences have little intergenerational consequence

Must try harder !

Enki

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2023, 12:28:09 PM »
Hi everyone....what happened? All quiet on the western front!
I have already replied and because of the predictability of your response that I replied to, saw little reason to go further.

Quote
With reference to my post no 44 about Enki's link.....there have been no verbal abuses, no mud slinging, no.... 'that guy is an idiot....the other guy is not an expert....this guy is a Christian....that website has religious afflictions.... we know all these things anyway'.... and so on....
As I don't deal in such unpleasantries as mud slinging etc. I have no comment to make.

Quote
I don't wish to rub it in....but that article does take the wind off your sails somewhat!

I am at a loss to understand what there is to 'rub in' or why you should even contemplate doing so. The article is basically a resume of the differing strands of evolutionary thought

Quote
Certain things are clear...

really!

Quote
1. The theory of evolution (modern synthesis) is far from accepted by all experts.

But, as the article makes clear, it has the overriding acceptance of most scientists and remains mainstream.

Quote
2. Natural Selection is a metaphor and not as fundamental as earlier supposed. Of course, traits that enable an organism to survive and reproduce in a specific environment will  obviously  get passed on.....but it is not quite as simple as that.

The article says nothing about natural selection being a metaphor. What it does say is that everyone agrees that natural selection plays a role, as does mutation and random chance.

Quote
3. How novel traits arise is not known.

It would depend on which novel traits you are talking about. For instance, scientists believe the compound eye results from primitive eye spots whereas the insect wing has at least two competing hypotheses on how they originated.

Quote
4. Mechanisms such as Epigenetics and Plasticity are probably much more important and fundamental in evolution.

Plasticity is certainly relevant but there is no evidence to suggest that it is not an evolutionary adaptation. Epigenetics is only referred to in three sentences and suffers from the evidence that after multiple generations its effects die out.

Quote
5. Lamarckism needs to be reconsidered.

The article devotes only one sentence to this, describes Eva Jablonka as a firebrand and says nothing about her ideas. That says nothing as to whether Lamarckism needs to be reconsidered or not.

Quote
6. Certain changes in organisms happen within a single generation.

There is some evidence that new species can develop in as little as two generations I believe, as Galapogos studies seem to show. https://sage-advices.com/can-a-population-evolve-in-one-generation/
However it makes complete sense that a change in an individual organism can become entrenched by natural selection over time. Indeed, that is how Darwinian evolution works. However the idea that an organism can change during its lifetime is related to epigenetics which is referred to above.

Quote
Interesting!


Certainly is. ;D

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jeremyp

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2023, 06:23:00 PM »
Hi everyone....what happened? All quiet on the western front!

With reference to my post no 44 about Enki's link.....there have been no verbal abuses, no mud slinging, no.... 'that guy is an idiot....the other guy is not an expert....this guy is a Christian....that website has religious afflictions.... we know all these things anyway'.... and so on.... 

I don't wish to rub it in....but that article does take the wind off your sails somewhat! 

Certain things are clear...

1. The theory of evolution (modern synthesis) is far from accepted by all experts.

2. Natural Selection is a metaphor and not as fundamental as earlier supposed. Of course, traits that enable an organism to survive and reproduce in a specific environment will  obviously  get passed on.....but it is not quite as simple as that.

3. How novel traits arise is not known.

4. Mechanisms such as Epigenetics and Plasticity are probably much more important and fundamental in evolution.

5. Lamarckism needs to be reconsidered.

6. Certain changes in organisms happen within a single generation.

Interesting!

Haven't you noticed how Jewish boys still need to be circumcised. If Lamarckism was correct, they would be born without foreskins.

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Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2023, 05:49:16 AM »
Haven't you noticed how Jewish boys still need to be circumcised. If Lamarckism was correct, they would be born without foreskins.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7768451/

************

Although August Weismann in his 1872 book was correct that the sperm and egg were the only cells to transmit molecular information to the subsequent generation, the concept that somatic cells do not impact the germline (i.e., the Weismann barrier) is incorrect.

The discovery of epigenetics, and more recently environmentally induced epigenetic transgenerational inheritance of phenotypic variation and pathology, have had significant impacts on evolution theory and medicine today. Environmental epigenetics and the concept of epigenetic transgenerational inheritance refute aspects of the Weismann barrier and require a re-evaluation of both inheritance theory and evolution theory.

************

Italics mine.

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2023, 06:09:30 AM »
Well,

1. The modern synthesis is not a hypothesis to be accepted or rejected
2. Wrong
3. Wrong.
4. More important than what ?
5. Not really
6. Environmetal influences have little intergenerational consequence

Must try harder !


FYI....I am copying below relevant sentences from the linked article at post 44.

1. A new wave of scientists argues that mainstream evolutionary theory needs an urgent overhaul.

2. “The first eye, the first wing, the first placenta. How they emerge. .....says Armin Moczek, a biologist at Indiana University. “And yet, we still do not have a good answer. This classic idea of gradual change, one happy accident at a time, has so far fallen flat.”

3. Think of the way a grandfather’s red hair, absent in his son, might reappear in his granddaughter. How was natural selection meant to function when its tiny variations might not even reliably pass from parent to offspring every time?

4. they found that natural selection was not the all-powerful force that many had assumed it to be. ..... The genes were changing – that is, evolving – but natural selection wasn’t playing a part.......Natural selection seemed to be asleep at the wheel.

5. Other biologists simply found that the modern synthesis had little relevance to their work. As the study of life increased in complexity, a theory based on which genes were selected in various environments started to seem beside the point.

6. its most ambitious claims – that simply by understanding genes and natural selection, we can understand all life on earth – have been dropped,

7. the EES, call for a new way of thinking about evolution.... Ultimately, they want their sub-fields – plasticity, evolutionary development, epigenetics, cultural evolution – not just recognised, but formalised in the canon of biology.

8. One of the most fascinating recent areas of research is known as plasticity,

9. the Senegal bichir “is adapting to land in a single generation”.

10. "Plasticity is perhaps what sparks the rudimentary form of a novel trait,” says Pfennig.

Italics mine.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2023, 09:44:30 AM »
4. Mechanisms such as Epigenetics and Plasticity are probably much more important and fundamental in evolution.
And how do you think epigenetics (which typically involves enzymatic methylation or acetylation of DNA or histone molecules) arose other than through evolution.

Likewise plasticity.


Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2023, 11:12:41 AM »
And how do you think epigenetics (which typically involves enzymatic methylation or acetylation of DNA or histone molecules) arose other than through evolution.

Likewise plasticity.




Plasticity and epigenetics are some possible mechanisms through which evolution could happen. You are saying they arose due to evolution...  What does that even mean? 


jeremyp

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2023, 12:05:10 PM »
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7768451/

************

Although August Weismann in his 1872 book was correct that the sperm and egg were the only cells to transmit molecular information to the subsequent generation, the concept that somatic cells do not impact the germline (i.e., the Weismann barrier) is incorrect.

The discovery of epigenetics, and more recently environmentally induced epigenetic transgenerational inheritance of phenotypic variation and pathology, have had significant impacts on evolution theory and medicine today. Environmental epigenetics and the concept of epigenetic transgenerational inheritance refute aspects of the Weismann barrier and require a re-evaluation of both inheritance theory and evolution theory.

************

Italics mine.

That's not a defence of Lamarckism.
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Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2023, 02:41:30 PM »
That's not a defence of Lamarckism.


Lamarckism was discredited mainly because of the Weissmann barrier according to which somatic cells cannot influence germ line cells. This has been found to be wrong.

Read the link. there is a section on neo Lamarckism. Just to help you out....

"The concepts of environmentally induced epigenetic transgenerational inheritance allow for the “environment to directly impact phenotypic variation and be heritable”, which is the basic concept put forward by Lamarck"

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2023, 08:45:36 AM »
Plasticity and epigenetics are some possible mechanisms through which evolution could happen. You are saying they arose due to evolution...  What does that even mean?
Epigenetics is typically controlled through the action of enzymes, with are proteins coded for by DNA in exactly the same manner as any other protein. Mutations in DNA can lead to a change in a protein which allows it to catalyse reactions on either DNA itself or on the histones which interact with DNA in the chromatin in the nucleus. Those actions can lead to silencing of regions of the DNA or allowing it to be active. If that trait is evolutionarily advantageous it will be selected for in the normal evolutionary manner, as ultimately it leads back to the genetic (rather than epigenetic) coding of the DNA. If it is evolutionarily disadvantageous it will disappear, if neutral it may be retained within the gene pool alongside other, perhaps advantageous traits, but if conditions change then the epigenetic trait would become advantageous or disadvantageous.

That's what epigenetics and it is perfectly compatible with standard evolutionary theory.

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2023, 06:37:16 AM »


Epigenetic mechanisms allow acquired characteristics to be passed on to offspring. This is not a part of the standard evolution theory because no change in the DNA was expected.

But inheritance itself is now being redefined to include epigenetic inheritance, because phenotype changes happen also due to epigenetic causes.

Outrider

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2023, 04:04:37 PM »
Epigenetic mechanisms allow acquired characteristics to be passed on to offspring. This is not a part of the standard evolution theory because no change in the DNA was expected.

But inheritance itself is now being redefined to include epigenetic inheritance, because phenotype changes happen also due to epigenetic causes.

In the short term, yes, so it is inheritance, but not in the long term, so as far as evolution is concerned there's currently no evidenced to suggest that it plays a significant role.

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Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2023, 05:50:35 AM »


Just google for it. There are plenty of articles about epigenetics and its role in evolution.

Outrider

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2023, 09:10:44 AM »
Just google for it. There are plenty of articles about epigenetics and its role in evolution.

And they're all either misunderstandings, overstatements or pointing out that despite the superficial short term inheritances there is no significant evolutionary mechanic in epigenetic effects, although the propensity for epigenetics might itself be an evolutionary mechanism.

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2023, 10:04:27 AM »
Epigenetic mechanisms allow acquired characteristics to be passed on to offspring.
But standard epigenetic modifications are driven by enzymes coded for by DNA in the standard manner. So we have a standard evolutionary mechanism in place fundamentally driven by genomic modifications which themselves are essential for the epigenetic modifications to exist.

This is not a part of the standard evolution theory because no change in the DNA was expected.
Except it does - see above. You cannot epigenetically modify a histone (for example) with histone acetylase without the DNA coding for the enzyme histone deacetylase.

Realistically this is no different to any other behavioural characteristic that can be passed on from parent to offspring not directly by DNA inheritance albeit requiring DNA coding in the first place. For example, teaching and learning. The transfer of knowledge via teaching/learning clearly isn't directly driven by DNA inheritance - the offspring doesn't directly 'inherit' that knowledge. But the cognitive ability to teach and learn is clearly driven by our genes and DNA and completely consistent with standard evolutionary theory.

And just like epigenetic transmission - it isn't long range. It only lasts for one or a small number of generations and is therefore transitory. True evolutionary selection traits needs to be transmitted over a far longer range of inheritance steps.

But inheritance itself is now being redefined to include epigenetic inheritance, because phenotype changes happen also due to epigenetic causes.
But epigenetic changes are merely one element of phenotype that are driven by standard genetic (not epigenetic) modifications. No DNA to code for histone acetylase, no epigenetic acetylation of histones.

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2023, 06:20:42 AM »



Lot of detail but missing the point.  The idea of random variations and natural selection that you people have been touting is just not good enough to explain evolution.

Organisms are able to adapt and change in line with environmental requirements sometimes within one generation.  Plasticity is an important feature of inheritance and evolution.

torridon

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2023, 07:04:49 AM »

Lot of detail but missing the point.  The idea of random variations and natural selection that you people have been touting is just not good enough to explain evolution.

Organisms are able to adapt and change in line with environmental requirements sometimes within one generation.  Plasticity is an important feature of inheritance and evolution.

Any system that comprises elements of variation and selection will evolve.  This is fundamental.  Phenotype plasticity etc add layers of nuance and complexity to the overall mechanisms of evolution as it plays out for life on Earth. 

If NASA's Europa Clipper mission, due to launch in 2024, were to find life in the subsurface oceans of Europa, you can bet it will exhibit evolution by mutation and natural selection, but epigenetics etc may well not be a feature of life there.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2023, 07:06:54 AM by torridon »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2023, 08:08:47 AM »
The idea of random variations and natural selection that you people have been touting is just not good enough to explain evolution.
Why? There is plenty of evidence to suggest it is perfectly 'good enough' to explain evolution. We aren't 'touting' this in a speculative kind of manner - nope, we are following the evidence.

If you want to challenge the evidence for this, you'll need to provide evidence which is more compelling for an alternative mechanism.

Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2023, 02:06:24 PM »


Quite clearly, the talk by Denis Noble and the other articles that I have referred above, have had no effect what so ever.  ::)

Shows how dogmatic science enthusiasts can be.....

Outrider

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2023, 02:54:16 PM »
Quite clearly, the talk by Denis Noble and the other articles that I have referred above, have had no effect what so ever.  ::)

It doesn't matter whose prestigious name you can put on a non-scientific claim it's not going to trump actual well-established science. It's been pointed out to you why Noble's questions, while valid to a degree, are not sufficient to overturn the scientific consensus.

Quote
Shows how dogmatic science enthusiasts can be.....

Yeah, following the evidence and all that, not ignoring it to cleave to their... pet... superstit... Oh.

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Sriram

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2023, 06:18:17 AM »


Dogma! Dogma! Dogma! Tut...tut!    :)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2023, 01:37:11 PM »

Dogma! Dogma! Dogma! Tut...tut!    :)
Nope - evidence, evidence, evidence.

Seems to me that it is you who dogmatically latches onto a tiny number of people who may have views that you seem to like in an unevidenced manner.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: A new approach to evolution
« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2023, 01:44:17 PM »
Quite clearly, the talk by Denis Noble and the other articles that I have referred above, have had no effect what so ever.  ::)
I've met Noble a few times at scientific meetings - he is extremely well regarded as a heart electro-physiologist, known both for his experimental and modelling work. Indeed I've been on the organising committee for a conference where we invited him as a key note speaker ... a key note on his area of expertise, which is ... err ... electrophysiology.

He is not, and I don't believe he claims to be, an evolutionary biologist. Indeed I don't think he has published any of his own research in the field of evolutionary biologist. That is why his talk is sub-titled 'A physiologist enters the lions' den of evolutionary biology' - he is positing ideas as a non-expert.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 01:51:46 PM by ProfessorDavey »