Eastern philosophy says there is no “self.” Science agrees

[Nearly Sane]

Bit simplistic headline but they so often are, but some good stuff in here.


https://bigthink.com/the-well/eastern-philosophy-neuroscience-no-self/

[Sriram]

Eastern philosophy does not say that there is no self. This is a wrong interpretation of certain teachings of Buddhism. Who is recognizing that there is no self?  If the self did not exist....after life, reincarnation, karma and liberation would be meaningless. 

What is taught is that.... the ego self is an illusion. We are not what we think we are. We have an inner self which is the true self and realizing this fact is the goal of life. This true self is sometimes identified with the universal spirit and sometimes not. 

[Aruntraveller]

Lettuce. Tomato. Radish. Onion. Cucumber. Pepper.

All tossed lightly in sarcasm sauce.

[torridon]

Eastern philosophy does not say that there is no self. This is a wrong interpretation of certain teachings of Buddhism. Who is recognizing that there is no self?  If the self did not exist....after life, reincarnation, karma and liberation would be meaningless. 

What is taught is that.... the ego self is an illusion. We are not what we think we are. We have an inner self which is the true self and realizing this fact is the goal of life. This true self is sometimes identified with the universal spirit and sometimes not.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/anatta

[Sriram]

I know what Anatma (annata) is. That is a part of the Theravada teaching.....but they are unable to explain karma, rebirth and nirvana, which are basic teachings of Buddhism,  in relation to Annata. 

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2020/12/08/buddhism-a-synopsis/

[Dicky Underpants]

Eastern philosophy does not say that there is no self. This is a wrong interpretation of certain teachings of Buddhism. Who is recognizing that there is no self?  If the self did not exist....after life, reincarnation, karma and liberation would be meaningless. 

What is taught is that.... the ego self is an illusion. We are not what we think we are. We have an inner self which is the true self and realizing this fact is the goal of life. This true self is sometimes identified with the universal spirit and sometimes not.

If the "true self" is sometimes identified with the universal spirit, this is tantamount to saying there is no self. So some schools of Hinduism say that each one of us is effectively 'God', except there has been precious little evidence of godlike qualities in those who have claimed that they have realised their divinity. The world continues as ever.

[Nearly Sane]

As covered in my open post, it's a very simplistic title. I think the more interesting stuff is on the science side
 

[torridon]

Agreed.

Couldn't resist picking this line out for Alan : "The next time there is an intrusive thought, consider the very fact that your being unable to stop it proves that there is no inner self that controls it"

[Sriram]

If the "true self" is sometimes identified with the universal spirit, this is tantamount to saying there is no self. So some schools of Hinduism say that each one of us is effectively 'God', except there has been precious little evidence of godlike qualities in those who have claimed that they have realised their divinity. The world continues as ever.

In Hindu culture there are many levels of development. Even among the sages there are the rishis...raj rishis....maha rishis....Brahma rishis.

It is in the advaita philosophy that the Self is equated with the absolute brahman. In other schools of vedanta the self is regarded as an individual  soul that keeps developing and eventually reaches brahman during pralaya.  Anyway...these are just speculative ideas based on the thoughts of some philosophers like Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhava.  Many bhakti schools see the absolute as a superior being who is attained through devotion.

There are no absolute or irrefutable ideas in Hinduism.  The Gita teaches that all schools are equally valid.

[Sriram]

Agreed.

Couldn't resist picking this line out for Alan : "The next time there is an intrusive thought, consider the very fact that your being unable to stop it proves that there is no inner self that controls it"

Something is aware of the thought even though it may not be able to control it. That is the self.

Controlling thoughts and emotions is also possible. That is what Yoga and meditations are all about. 

Once thoughts and emotions are controlled....we can become self realized....which means that we can recognize our true nature.  This is spirituality.   

[Bramble]

Something is aware of the thought even though it may not be able to control it. That is the self.

Controlling thoughts and emotions is also possible. That is what Yoga and meditations are all about. 

Once thoughts and emotions are controlled....we can become self realized....which means that we can recognize our true nature.  This is spirituality.

A lot of controlling going on there. I guess this is inevitable with a self in the driver's seat.

[jeremyp]

Eastern philosophy does not say that there is no self. This is a wrong interpretation of certain teachings of Buddhism. Who is recognizing that there is no self?  If the self did not exist....after life, reincarnation, karma and liberation would be meaningless. 

What is taught is that.... the ego self is an illusion. We are not what we think we are. We have an inner self which is the true self and realizing this fact is the goal of life. This true self is sometimes identified with the universal spirit and sometimes not.

The headline is, as NS says, simplistic. First of all, what is "Eastern philosophy". Does every Eastern philosopher from the Urals to Japan agree on everything? I hardly think so. The same applies to Western philosophy. Descartes' views were different to Socrates and Kant.

As for the phrase "there is no self". This is clearly nonsense. The article even refutes the idea that Eastern philosophy (well, at least some Eastern philosophy) denies its existence.

But in Buddhism and other schools of Eastern thought, the concept of the self is seen as the result of the thinking mind.

The "self" is an emergent property of the workings of the mind. Personally, I 100% agree with that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Would folks here say the self is unitary or are people in two minds over that?

[Nearly Sane]

Would folks here say the self is unitary or are people in two minds over that?

Our's isn't.

[Sriram]

Many people use the nihilistic philosophy of certain schools of Theravada Buddhism to support their own atheistic ideas. This is quite common.

In fact Buddhism is quite popular among many atheists because it does not teach about a God at all. Never mind that many Buddhists have made Buddha into a God! 

[Bramble]

Many people use the nihilistic philosophy of certain schools of Theravada Buddhism to support their own atheistic ideas. This is quite common.

In fact Buddhism is quite popular among many atheists because it does not teach about a God at all. Never mind that many Buddhists have made Buddha into a God!

I don't suppose you would ever be guilty of selectively using other folk's ideas to support your own views, perish the thought. Hardly surprising you're not fond of Buddhism - after all, it's founder is well known for having spent a long time searching for the atman and not finding it. Of course, it goes without saying that he must have been in error since you know best, Sriram, as always. Incidentally, Buddhism is sometimes known as the Middle Way precisely because it charts a course between the extremes of permanence and annihilation (nihilism). Just saying - wrongly, obviously.

[Sriram]

From where did you get this information about the Buddha searching for his atman and not finding it? From him personally? Because the Buddha did not write a single word in his lifetime. Whatever was written was done 300 years after his death by people born several generations later.

Secondly, if any one searches for his atman but does not find it ....it is like searching for oneself everywhere....under the bed, in the closet....but not finding it. Where am I?!!

The self is what is doing the searching.....! 

[Bramble]

You seem to have a mental block about this, Sriram.

[Dicky Underpants]

From where did you get this information about the Buddha searching for his atman and not finding it? From him personally? Because the Buddha did not write a single word in his lifetime. Whatever was written was done 300 years after his death by people born several generations later.

Secondly, if any one searches for his atman but does not find it ....it is like searching for oneself everywhere....under the bed, in the closet....but not finding it. Where am I?!!

The self is what is doing the searching.....! 

Would that be the ego or the Atman that starts off the search?

[Sriram]

Would that be the ego or the Atman that starts off the search?

The atman works through the ego self. It has to. The ego has its own take on it and searches for God to protect itself. The ego is the horse riding on which the Self progresses. Salvation and eternity are the carrots for the horse.

[Dicky Underpants]

The atman works through the ego self. It has to. The ego has its own take on it and searches for God to protect itself. The ego is the horse riding on which the Self progresses. Salvation and eternity are the carrots for the horse.

Any idea where the ego came from, given that you say it's basically an illusion? The Atman is presumably the greater reality, yet somehow the ego emerges out of this and seems to develop a life of its own (which is why we all become immersed in the web of Maya). I'm trying to give my own impressions of these vague philosophical ideas, and have no idea how good a representation of them they are.
It almost seems like a myth of original sin, except as far as I know, no such ideas exist in Hinduism. And yet the basic idea is we are somehow separated by identifying the ego as the real self, separated from the Atman or God. It seems in some ways to evoke the need for the sense of Atonement (at-one-ment) which is such a cornerstone of much Christian belief. And just as Christianity is - to me - totally incapable of giving a meaningful explanation as to how this separation came about, the same is true of these Hindu ideas.
Why on earth would such a separation occur? Naturalistic and evolutionary ideas about the origin of the sense of self have no such problems, though it is possible that some of the tunnel vision of our modern life has come about as a result of living in the crowded communities of towns and cities. There may be certain sensibilities which have atrophied in us since the days of our hunter-gatherer existence as a result of this, and in this sense we could possibly reactivate them by a change of life-style. Most of us know this pretty well anyway - a long  walk through beautiful countryside can certainly give a different sense of 'self' to the one that develops by being stuck in front of a computer all day working on spreadsheets.

P.S. To tie my last comments in with the observations in NS's original link, some rather simplistic armchair psychologists have tried to epitomise such activities as being processed more by either the left cerebral hemisphere or the right. Thus, in my last sentence, working on computer spreadsheets would be a left-brain activity, whereas the 'widening' of consciousness which might occur during a country walk would involve more activity from the right hemisphere.

[Sriram]

Take the analogy of the string in string theory.  The string is said to vibrate in 11 dimensions and transform itself into different particles. These particles then form atoms, elements, compounds..... and the entire world is generated.

This means that  the only true reality is the string. Everything else is just a transformed aspect of the string....meaning that the world is really an illusion. If say (in theory), the string for some reason stops vibrating suddenly....the entire world could disappear instantaneously.     

The idea of the universal spirit (Brahman) is similar. The world is said to arise through vibrations within the brahman. These vibrations can be also seen as desires from a human perspective. Different levels of creation are thereby generated as emanations....continuously one from the other.

The ego and our individuality are also emanations. They are real for us but illusions if seen from an ultimate view point.