Author Topic: Life  (Read 2854 times)

Sriram

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Re: Life
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2023, 01:12:50 PM »



Yoga is based on an understanding of the subtle matter that comprises and surrounds our mind and body. In yoga, the physical body is only the stula or gross body. There are other subtle bodies surrounding and meshed in with the physical body. An understanding of these 'bodies' and how they influence our physical well being is what Yoga is about.

I am not denying the strides made by modern medicine but the understanding of the human physiology that we have in modern medicine is not complete and not the only way of understanding the body and our health. There are many layers.

You could try this for more of my views on this.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/alternative-medicines-3-implications/



Stranger

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Re: Life
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2023, 02:57:25 PM »
I am not denying the strides made by modern medicine but the understanding of the human physiology that we have in modern medicine is not complete and not the only way of understanding the body and our health. There are many layers.

Unevidenced, unargued assertion, yet again.   ::)

You could try this for more of my views on this.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/alternative-medicines-3-implications/

Once again referencing your own blog without pointing out that it is your own. "Alternative Medicine", hum...

Q: What do you call alternative medicine that actually works?
A: Medicine.

:)


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Outrider

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Re: Life
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2023, 03:02:39 PM »
Yoga is based on an understanding of the subtle matter that comprises and surrounds our mind and body. In yoga, the physical body is only the stula or gross body. There are other subtle bodies surrounding and meshed in with the physical body. An understanding of these 'bodies' and how they influence our physical well being is what Yoga is about.

For you, perhaps, for some others. There are hundreds of thousands of people, I'd guess, across the world who are reaping benefits from yoga who never get told anything about any of that and still derive tangible benefits from it.

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I am not denying the strides made by modern medicine but the understanding of the human physiology that we have in modern medicine is not complete and not the only way of understanding the body and our health. There are many layers.

And here we go again. That's a possibility, sure, but you need more than the fact that you - or someone you know - gets tingly feelings in where they think a chakra is before you can start to suggest that there are currently viable alternatives to scientific investigation to understand how the human body works and what's best for it.

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You could try this for more of my views on this.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/alternative-medicines-3-implications/

To quote one of my personal favourite musical philosophers: "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? Medicine." Minchin, T. Storm

O.
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Stranger

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Re: Life
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2023, 03:29:28 PM »
To quote one of my personal favourite musical philosophers: "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? Medicine." Minchin, T. Storm

Oi! I posted that joke first!  >:(  ;)  :D
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Outrider

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Re: Life
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2023, 03:36:33 PM »
Oi! I posted that joke first!  >:(  ;)  :D

I'm sure Minchin, T., musical philospher extraordinaire would contest that claim  ;D

O.
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Maeght

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Re: Life
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2023, 03:37:08 PM »
I'm sure Minchin, T., musical philospher extraordinaire would contest that claim  ;D

O.

Does he post here?

Stranger

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Re: Life
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2023, 03:59:19 PM »
I'm sure Minchin, T., musical philospher extraordinaire would contest that claim  ;D

Wouldn't like to bet he was the first to use it, either. I'm sure I remember it from way back....
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Sriram

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Re: Life
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2023, 05:01:54 PM »
Tested by whom and how?

Well...Many medicines that you call medicines...don't actually work or they produce terrible side effects.  Many alternative medicines that you don't call medicine actually work. That is the irony.  ::)

Your clinical trials sponsored by drug companies are not always reliable.  Many traditionally tried and tested alternative  medicines are in fact, safe and reliable.

Ask your king. He uses many of the alternative medicines.....

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Life
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2023, 05:05:54 PM »
Wouldn't like to bet he was the first to use it, either. I'm sure I remember it from way back....

Sure I saw it in "Snake Oil and Other Preoccupations" by John Diamond. Sort of place you'd expect it, anyway.
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Stranger

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Re: Life
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2023, 05:16:30 PM »
Many alternative medicines that you don't call medicine actually work.

Name one that has been shown to be any better than a placebo?

Ask your king. He uses many of the alternative medicines.....

Why? He's a buffoon in many ways, this being one of them. He thinks homoeopathy works, FFS!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Life
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2023, 05:23:24 PM »
Sure I saw it in "Snake Oil and Other Preoccupations" by John Diamond. Sort of place you'd expect it, anyway.
What a book that is!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Life
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2023, 06:04:46 PM »
I thought the quote was from Ben Goldacre, but couldn't find it. I did though find this:

"Just just because there are flaws in aircraft design that doesn't mean flying carpets exist."

(Ben Goldacre) 

Which seems to me neatly to skewer most of Sriram's efforts here.
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Outrider

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Re: Life
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2023, 11:15:00 PM »
Tested by whom and how?

Whomever has a robust protocol, and then publicises both the protocol and the results in order that people can assess the reliability of the findings.

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Well...Many medicines that you call medicines...don't actually work or they produce terrible side effects.

No. A small number of medicines have demonstrable results in certain circumstances, but not others (and in some instances we don't know why). A larger number of medicines have significant side effects, which is why we have experts that we qualify to prescribe them so that those side effects can be communicated and an informed decision taken about whether to take the medicine, and if so which one.

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Many alternative medicines that you don't call medicine actually work.

No. Some alternative medicines might work, but not enough evidence is available to confirm that (is that refrain becoming familiar to you? It should, by now). The rest of them have been comprehensively tested and been shown to be ineffective.

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That is the irony.  ::)

No, the irony is that regardless of the topic here you keep making claims that the evidence you have available aren't sufficient to support.

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Your clinical trials sponsored by drug companies are not always reliable.

Which is why we have regulators to oversee them, and there are significant improvements that could be made in the field - I highly recommend Dr Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Pharma' for a really accessible insight into this.

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Many traditionally tried and tested alternative  medicines are in fact, safe and reliable.

And those that are have been refined and turned into conventional medicines, whilst the rest remain either unfounded or demonstrably ineffective (and in some instances actively dangerous, notwithstanding the potential for people to rely on these instead of medicines that will actually help).

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Ask your king. He uses many of the alternative medicines....

I cannot think of a better example you could have used to demonstrate the sort of information-deficient numbskull that would espouse nonsense like homeopathy. He, too, promotes delusional claims that evidence hasn't just failed to support but has repeatedly, regularly shown to be absolute nonsense.

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Sriram

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Re: Life
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2023, 06:30:01 AM »


Ayurveda has been known to work and cure diseases for centuries before modern medicines and clinical trials came to exist. Similarly, Yoga has been known to prevent and cure ailments for centuries before modern medicines or methods of verification came to exist.  Nobody waited around for western methods of verification.

Modern researchers did not even bother to check out these systems till very recent years. I remember in the 1970's western people would laugh at Indians twisting themselves around and 'gazing at their navel'. Ayurveda was largely dismissed as snake oil vending.  Even today some people snicker at yoga, meditations and Ayurveda. Typical western presumptions.

Billions of people in India and across the world use Ayurveda, yoga and meditations....because they are time tested and known to work. In fact, in recent years, there is a marked increase in the use of traditional medical systems due to the disillusionment with many modern medicines.

So....medicines that are 'proven to work' does not necessarily mean tested using western methods.

 

Sriram

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Re: Life
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2023, 06:36:39 AM »


Happy International Yoga Day...by the way!  :)

Outrider

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Re: Life
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2023, 10:46:30 AM »
Ayurveda has been known to work and cure diseases for centuries before modern medicines and clinical trials came to exist.

And there are elements of Ayurvedic medicine that have been tested and shown to work and been adopted across the world. Equally, there are parts of it that have been tested and been shown to have no appreciable effect.

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Similarly, Yoga has been known to prevent and cure ailments for centuries before modern medicines or methods of verification came to exist.

Yep. And Tai Chi and calisthenics and any number of other light exercise systems developed in a range of places and came to the same conclusion, and that basic process has now been tested and we have documentary evidence to support the physiological claims without having to drape any of it in spiritualist woo.

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Nobody waited around for western methods of verification.

Which is why the bits that worked were intertwined with bits that didn't.

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Modern researchers did not even bother to check out these systems till very recent years. I remember in the 1970's western people would laugh at Indians twisting themselves around and 'gazing at their navel'. Ayurveda was largely dismissed as snake oil vending.  Even today some people snicker at yoga, meditations and Ayurveda. Typical western presumptions.

Yep, that sort of cultural bigotry is problematic; of course, at the moment, one of the worst purveyors of that is Modhi's India.

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Billions of people in India and across the world use Ayurveda, yoga and meditations....because they are time tested and known to work.

Not so much. Billions of people in India and across the world use them because they're part of their cultural tradition, and they've not been on the whole bad enough to warrant throwing them out. The bits that do work generate enough good will that the bits that don't work are ignored, but as more and more people study the detail and separate out the elements, those traditions are being refined when politicians aren't interfering for their own nationalist agendas.

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In fact, in recent years, there is a marked increase in the use of traditional medical systems due to the disillusionment with many modern medicines.

Yep, and there's evidence that it's contributing to a slowing of improvements in medical outcomes.

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So....medicines that are 'proven to work' does not necessarily mean tested using western methods.

The 'scientific method', whilst more explicitly espoused in Western nations is something that has been independently put forward in any number of cultures. The earliest examples come from Egypt and Babylonia, elements of it were focussed on by the likes of Aristotle in the Western tradition, but developed by the Muslims in the middle-ages, without any obvious input from the Charvaka school of thought which continued in parallel and rejected supernatural concepts in favour of empiricism.

The scientific method is not a 'Western method', but even if it were to reject it on that basis rather than because it was somehow demonstrably flawed would be foolish.

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Sriram

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Re: Life
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2023, 06:10:24 AM »


My point is very simple. Proving that something works does not mean only through clinical trials.  Experience of people over generations is also proof.   

In fact, clinical trials cannot always be relied upon. Many long term effects are not known through trials.

Besides that, western people are so deeply entrenched in their own ways that it takes a long time for them to open up to other possibilities. A simple thing such as vegetarianism is an example. Indians did not need clinical trials as proof that vegetarianism is good for health or that animals and the environment need to be protected and respected. It has taken many decades for vegetarianism to even get accepted as a normal diet form in the west.

Microscopic thinking can obliterate common sense and wisdom. 

Similarly, it will take time for the 'scientific minded' western world to wake up to such possibilities as Life being a form of energy (or whatever you want to call it). Not that there aren't many in the west who accept such matters currently! 


Gordon

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Re: Life
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2023, 07:08:09 AM »

My point is very simple. Proving that something works does not mean only through clinical trials.  Experience of people over generations is also proof.   

In fact, clinical trials cannot always be relied upon. Many long term effects are not known through trials.

Besides that, western people are so deeply entrenched in their own ways that it takes a long time for them to open up to other possibilities. A simple thing such as vegetarianism is an example. Indians did not need clinical trials as proof that vegetarianism is good for health or that animals and the environment need to be protected and respected. It has taken many decades for vegetarianism to even get accepted as a normal diet form in the west.

Microscopic thinking can obliterate common sense and wisdom. 

Similarly, it will take time for the 'scientific minded' western world to wake up to such possibilities as Life being a form of energy (or whatever you want to call it). Not that there aren't many in the west who accept such matters currently!

Reading this reminds me of two Richard Feynman quotes:

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.


Stranger

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Re: Life
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2023, 11:02:04 AM »
My point is very simple. Proving that something works does not mean only through clinical trials.  Experience of people over generations is also proof.   

It simply isn't. Actually nothing is literally 'proof'; the best we can hope for is good evidence. There are all sorts of effects that can cloud people's judgement, including (obviously) the placebo effect, but also regression to the mean and confirmation bias, for example.

That's why the 'gold standard' is double blind, placebo controlled, properly randomised trails. They are the best way to eliminate all these extraneous effects that otherwise make the true effect (or lack thereof) difficult to see.

Long-term effects are a problem anyway, generations of use do not guarantee long-term safety. Look how long people had been smoking for, before the connection was made to lung cancer and other diseases.
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Outrider

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Re: Life
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2023, 11:40:15 AM »
My point is very simple.

To quote the inestimable Dr Ben Goldacre, "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that."

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Proving that something works does not mean only through clinical trials.

In medicine it pretty much does, that's sort of the definition of a clinical trial is something set up to determine if a treatment is effective, and if so how effective.

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Experience of people over generations is also proof.

Homeopathy has been around for over two hundred years, and does not work. People's experience is subjective and unreliable. 

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In fact, clinical trials cannot always be relied upon.

Absolutely. The design of trials can be skewed, the data can be cherry-picked after the fact, the tests to be conducted can be decided after the experiment has been run, there are any number of ways in which clinical trials can be - and sometimes are - mishandled. They are still more reliable than 'but we've been doing it for years'.

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Many long term effects are not known through trials.

Yep, because side effects are a small part of what trials are set up to determine; but confirming that a particular side-effect is the result of a particular treatment is, itself, a clinical trial.

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Besides that, western people are so deeply entrenched in their own ways that it takes a long time for them to open up to other possibilities.

Yes, it's Western people that are stuck in their ways. You wouldn't find good, sensible, open-minded Hindu Indians sticking to outmoded mixed bags because of tradition at all...

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A simple thing such as vegetarianism is an example. Indians did not need clinical trials as proof that vegetarianism is good for health or that animals and the environment need to be protected and respected.

Quick, shift a goal-post... Vegetarianism is neither intrinsically good nor bad for health, so long as it's managed properly - just like an omnivorous diet. If Indians are so aware of the need for environmental protection why are they collectively so bad it?

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It has taken many decades for vegetarianism to even get accepted as a normal diet form in the west.

Yep, because it's a cultural shift. Any cultural shift takes time. You can tie the environmental and health concerns together and show how demonstrably better all round it is to reduce beef consumption, and you're going to get laughed out of every state in the US (and twice out of Texas), because they're not ready for it, yet.

But at the same time you can explain to India about the perils for the world of continuing to burn coal for power at the rates they are, and they'll make (not baseless) arguments about how it's 'their turn' to reap the benefits of the raw materials available to them.

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Microscopic thinking can obliterate common sense and wisdom.

Lots of things can. Treating the entirety of they Ayurvedic tradition as though it were one equally valid, equally effective homogenous claim, for instance. 

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Similarly, it will take time for the 'scientific minded' western world to wake up to such possibilities as Life being a form of energy (or whatever you want to call it).

It will take time, yes. But that time will only start after you've actually demonstrated there is something more to the claim than 'it's possible'.

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Not that there aren't many in the west who accept such matters currently!

And if they're doing so without evidence they're going to be spectacularly unsuccessful in trying to effect a cultural shift on that.

O.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Life
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2023, 12:31:16 PM »
Sriram,

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My point is very simple. Proving that something works does not mean only through clinical trials.

Actually it pretty much does. Absent clinical trials, what other method would you propose?

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Experience of people over generations is also proof.

No it isn’t:

Anecdotal evidence is considered the least certain type of scientific information.[14] Researchers may use anecdotal evidence for suggesting new hypotheses, but never as validating evidence.[15][16]

If an anecdote illustrates a desired conclusion rather than a logical conclusion, it is considered a faulty or hasty generalization.
[17]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence#:~:text=Anecdotal%20evidence%20is%20considered%20the,a%20faulty%20or%20hasty%20generalization

Only by using clinical trials (or an equivalent objective method of valuation if you can think of one) is it possible to eliminate the multiple risks of error entrenched in anecdotes (confirmation bias, survivor bias, sampling error etc).     

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In fact, clinical trials cannot always be relied upon. Many long term effects are not known through trials.

Just just because there are flaws in aircraft design that doesn't mean flying carpets exist."

Ben Goldacre

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Besides that, western people are so deeply entrenched in their own ways that it takes a long time for them to open up to other possibilities.

Nonsense. “Western people” as you put it are as amenable to reason and evidence as anyone else. What you tend to find among more educated people though (ie, regardless of geography) is a greater reluctance to accept at face value unqualified woo.

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A simple thing such as vegetarianism is an example. Indians did not need clinical trials as proof that vegetarianism is good for health or that animals and the environment need to be protected and respected. It has taken many decades for vegetarianism to even get accepted as a normal diet form in the west.

That’s a cultural difference rather than an evidential one – the health benefits of reducing meat intake have been know about for a long time, but less wealthy countries tended to eat a more vegetable-based diet than wealthier countries as a matter of economic necessity. 

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Microscopic thinking can obliterate common sense and wisdom.

Your ”microscopic thinking” mistake has been falsified here many times here without reply, and in any case so far at least your “common sense and wisdom” claims have been anything but. 

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Similarly, it will take time for the 'scientific minded' western world to wake up to such possibilities as Life being a form of energy (or whatever you want to call it). Not that there aren't many in the west who accept such matters currently!

And the straw man and begging the question fallacies combo to finish. Good effort. The ““scientific minded” western world” is already already open to the possibility of anything that isn’t incoherent or internally contradictory, but if you want to assert that there’s something to be “woken up” to then you need to demonstrate its existence in the first place.

So far all you’ve managed to do is to assert these things rather than to demonstrate them, “justified” by some very poor reasoning.

That’s your problem remember? 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2023, 12:33:26 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Sriram

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Re: Life
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2023, 06:09:42 AM »

"but less wealthy countries tended to eat a more vegetable-based diet than wealthier countries as a matter of economic necessity."

That is nonsense. There are lots of very poor countries in Africa.  China and the south east Pacific countries have been very poor for centuries.  Britain was quite poor in the middle ages. Most countries have been poor at some time in their past. None of them adopted a vegetarian diet.

Many Indians have been vegetarian for millennia....and that has been a part of its traditional values for a long time. That is a part of its 'live and let live' philosophy. 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Life
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2023, 11:03:52 AM »
Sriram,

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"but less wealthy countries tended to eat a more vegetable-based diet than wealthier countries as a matter of economic necessity."

That is nonsense. There are lots of very poor countries in Africa.  China and the south east Pacific countries have been very poor for centuries.  Britain was quite poor in the middle ages. Most countries have been poor at some time in their past. None of them adopted a vegetarian diet.

Many Indians have been vegetarian for millennia....and that has been a part of its traditional values for a long time. That is a part of its 'live and let live' philosophy.

Are you seriously proposing that the consumption of two food types with significantly different costs of production (ie, meat vs arable) doesn’t correlate to the economic ability of societies to pay for them?

Seriously though?
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Sriram

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Re: Life
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2023, 11:25:27 AM »
Sriram,

Are you seriously proposing that the consumption of two food types with significantly different costs of production (ie, meat vs arable) doesn’t correlate to the economic ability of societies to pay for them?

Seriously though?

Don't you understand that in other poor countries vegetarianism is not prevalent?!
 
Secondly, vegetarians in India are largely from the upper classes such as Brahmns and rich business people such as Gujrathis and Marwadis.  Poorer classes of people are largely non-vegetarian.

You are just trying to find a rationale for your own choice of food.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Life
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2023, 11:36:02 AM »
Sriram,

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Don't you understand that in other poor countries vegetarianism is not prevalent?!
 
Secondly, vegetarians in India are largely from the upper classes such as Brahmns and rich business people such as Gujrathis and Marwadis.  Poorer classes of people are largely non-vegetarian.

You are just trying to find a rationale for your own choice of food.

There is a positive correlation between income level and meat consumption. Figures 1 and 2 show the relationship between per capita real GDP and per capita meat consumption based on 2011statistics, which is the most recent data available for the countries shown. The figures show that the lower the income level of a country, the lower the meat consumption, the higher the income level, the higher the meat consumption. Looking at the changes over time by country also reveals that, in most countries, the per capita consumption of meat increases along with the rise in per capita real GDP. It seems likely that this relationship arises because meat is not an essential product like grains, which are used as a food staple, and its consumption is easily influenced by income level. Accordingly, global meat consumption in the 2000s increased sharply along with the acceleration of economic growth, which occurred mainly in the emerging economies, rising from 209 million tons in 2000 to 270 million tons in 2011, an increase of 1.3 times, outstripping the growth in the world’s population, which increased by 1.1 times during the same period.”

https://www.mitsui.com/mgssi/en/report/detail/1221523_10744.html#:~:text=The%20figures%20show%20that%20the,the%20higher%20the%20meat%20consumption.
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