Author Topic: Reaching out to God  (Read 2529 times)

Sriram

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Reaching out to God
« on: June 28, 2023, 02:22:48 PM »


Hi everyone,

Religions did not create a belief in God. A belief in God created religions. 

Humans have a natural tendency to believe in a God.  We seem to be hardwired (refer Andrew Newberg) to believe in a God. In other words, we humans have a need to reach out to things bigger than ourselves....as part of our spiritual evolution. 

Seen with my view that evolution has a direction driven by our inner consciousness....it  is a natural conclusion that we are meant to believe in a God and in things that are beyond the obvious physical realities.  Our need to understand death and life as something beyond the body, is natural to us and is a need inherent in our mental make up.

Religions as cultural constructs are only an outcome of this need.

We are being driven to realize that we are more than mere physical bodies that happened to evolve due to random variations and chance natural selection. I think it is only proper that we follow this natural push instead of resisting it through stubborn  materialism.

Just some thoughts. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Nearly Sane

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2023, 02:33:06 PM »
We seem to have a natural propensity to war. Should we embrace that?

Outrider

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2023, 02:40:28 PM »
Religions did not create a belief in God. A belief in God created religions.

To a degree yes, but in the details no. A belief in something created religions, but religions very definitely created a belief in the specific god-concepts of those religions. That's why the divinities of Hinduism are so drastically different from those of Shintoism, and why the gods of the various Abrahamic sects are not only different from those, but so different from each other. The schism and conflict and friction between those sects has manifested as differences in the interpretation of what gods are, which feeds into the further tribalism and distinction. Which is not, of itself, an argument that they are all wrong, or all based on nothing, I just don't think it's as clear-cut as we have belief therefore we have god therefore we have religion. 

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Humans have a natural tendency to believe in a God.  We seem to be hardwired (refer Andrew Newberg) to believe in a God.

We have a tendency to err on the side of presuming agency, but again whilst you can see how that would lead to the idea of a god, it's not a requirement.

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In other words, we humans have a need to reach out to things bigger than ourselves....as part of our spiritual evolution.

No, that fails to necessarily follow. If that tendency is the result of a deliberate intent to inculcate spirituality (whatever that means) then it's a possibility, but if that tendency is the result of selective pressures in nature favouring instincts which err on the side of caution then that tendency to see agency is just a byproduct, it's not 'for' anything itself. The idea that there is a 'need' to reach out to things bigger than ourselves as part of something spiritual seems to be disproven purely by the increasing numbers of people who don't feel the need to be part of something spiritual at all. 

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Seen with my view that evolution has a direction driven by our inner consciousness....it  is a natural conclusion that we are meant to believe in a God and in things that are beyond the obvious physical realities.

Not to be disparaging, but if you start with the idea that there's a god - or, at least, some overarching guiding intelligence - it's hardly a surprise that you'll find an overarching guiding intelligence at the end of your chain as well.

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Our need to understand death and life as something beyond the body, is natural to us and is a need inherent in our mental make up.

What need is that? We seek agency naturally, as we established, but being able to put aside as much of our natural tendencies as we can, and do something academic, something intellectual, something reasoned instead is what makes us different from the rest of the animal kingdom.

We are, after all, not just monkey - we're monkeys with shoes.

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Religions as cultural constructs are only an outcome of this need.

You've described a trait, you've not established that it's a need at all.

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We are being driven to realize that we are more than mere physical bodies that happened to evolve due to random variations and chance natural selection.

No, we have a tendency to think that we're something more than 'mere' physical bodies, and if we don't examine that tendency then we'll likely be satisfied with that unevidenced explanation.

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I think it is only proper that we follow this natural push instead of resisting it through stubborn  materialism.

The naturalistic fallacy, even if it's compounded on a failure to adequately examine the precursors, remains a fallacy. Just because something's natural does not mean that we're in any way beholden to it - nor, by the same rationale, are we bound to reject it, of course.

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Stranger

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2023, 02:43:45 PM »
Humans have a natural tendency to believe in a God.  We seem to be hardwired (refer Andrew Newberg) to believe in a God.

There is a well documented cognitive bias called agent detection. People tend to see agency when there is none. The evolutionary reasons seem reasonably straightforward, in that a false positive is likely to be relatively harmless compared to a false negative that might end up with you being a predator's lunch.

It is worth noting that this is not specific to god(s) but other beliefs tend to have been dispelled by science.

Seen with my view that evolution has a direction driven by our inner consciousness...

A.k.a. blind faith.

We are being driven to realize that we are more than mere physical bodies that happened to evolve due to random variations and chance natural selection. I think it is only proper that we follow this natural push instead of resisting it through stubborn  materialism.

Overcoming our, often demonstrably faulty, intuitions is what has allowed us to progress in our understanding of the world we find ourselves in. Going back to them would be a giant leap in the wrong direction.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2023, 04:49:47 PM »
Religions did not create a belief in God. A belief in God created religions.
I think it is rather more complicated than that. Certainly it may be true that a general non-specific belief in some external powerful agency (call it god) led to religions. But the specific gods of particular religions seem to me to be a product of those religions, rather than the other way around. 

Humans have a natural tendency to believe in a God.  We seem to be hardwired (refer Andrew Newberg) to believe in a God.
No - again more nuanced - humans are clearly both intelligent and curious (both are linked in terms of evolutionary advantage). Those basic traits lead to a human need to explain the unexplained and until recently human individuals and societies didn't have the tools for objective evaluation so would tend to explain the 'big scale' unknowns in terms of their 'small scale' understanding. So natural phenomena are explained on the basis of the action of a supernatural entity with human-like characteristics. So the world must be created by a super-human god, thunder must be generated by a super-human god etc etc.

In other words, we humans have a need to reach out to things bigger than ourselves....as part of our spiritual evolution.
I agree that humans have a curiosity, which manifests as a need to explain the unknown beyond narrow existence. But that is fundamentally about the evolution of our knowledge base (because humans survive not by being able to run faster, have sharper teeth etc, but by knowing more stuff and being able to apply that knowledge). So-called spirituality or spiritual evolution is a societal or cultural by-product of that inherent curiosity. 

Seen with my view that evolution has a direction driven by our inner consciousness....it  is a natural conclusion that we are meant to believe in a God and in things that are beyond the obvious physical realities.  Our need to understand death and life as something beyond the body, is natural to us and is a need inherent in our mental make up.
Non-sense on stilts as again this is all the wrong way around. For humans intelligence, knowledge and curiosity confer evolutionary advantage so where they arise they will be retained by standard evolutionary mechanisms.

Religions as cultural constructs are only an outcome of this need.
Yes, I kind of agree, but I would broaden it. The evolutionary advantage of intelligence and knowledge for humans requires a societal structure in order to pass on that knowledge. Developing customs, societal cultures etc (not limited to, but including) religion helps both to propagate that knowledge but also to support strong community cohesion required to ensure that young humans (that are astonishingly vulnerable to any passing predators - including other humans) are protected for long enough to mature both physically and intellectually.

torridon

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2023, 06:59:04 AM »

Hi everyone,

Religions did not create a belief in God. A belief in God created religions. 

Humans have a natural tendency to believe in a God.  We seem to be hardwired (refer Andrew Newberg) to believe in a God. In other words, we humans have a need to reach out to things bigger than ourselves....as part of our spiritual evolution. 

Seen with my view that evolution has a direction driven by our inner consciousness....it  is a natural conclusion that we are meant to believe in a God and in things that are beyond the obvious physical realities.  Our need to understand death and life as something beyond the body, is natural to us and is a need inherent in our mental make up.

Religions as cultural constructs are only an outcome of this need.

We are being driven to realize that we are more than mere physical bodies that happened to evolve due to random variations and chance natural selection. I think it is only proper that we follow this natural push instead of resisting it through stubborn  materialism.

Just some thoughts. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Being natural does not necessarily map to being correct nor to being good. Many of our instinctive tendencies are harmful or maladaptive.

Tribalism is quite natural for instance.  On the one hand, this gives us strong within-group social cohesion but on the other it gives us racism, which despite all attempts to stamp it out through better education, persists at all levels of society.  This reflects the fact that tribalism in natural.  It also leads to xenophobia, nationalism, misogyny, homophobia, war, hate crimes, prejudice and so on.

Gorging on foods high in fat, sugar and salt is another quite natural tendency in humans; this might be traced back to the fact that during the formative eons of human evolution such things were rare in our diet and could be indulged to excess when found.  In modern times however when these things are readily available we end up with obesity rates at 40% or so in American adults, for instance.

It is naive to imagine that just because something is natural, it must be good.  We have to take a more nuanced view, and understand that many of our natural tendencies are in fact biases or spandrels that our evolutionary trajectory to date has left us with, for better or worse.

Sriram

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2023, 12:34:00 PM »



Its the same old  again. I start off with the assumption that there is a purpose to life and evolution and that it is being guided by an inner consciousness. You people are starting off with the assumption that it is all just chance through random variations with NS.

I cannot establish that it is indeed as I assume but there is enough complexity and enough direction towards higher levels of intelligence and consciousness to believe that I am correct. Evolution also seems to have an objective of survival and reproduction and an inner intelligence to guide it, as discussed in other threads.

i think it is nonsense to believe that belief in God and in non physical aspects of reality is due to random variations and natural selection....because it offers some survival advantage.  ::)

I believe that our natural tendency to recognize hidden patterns and an inner intelligence in life.....exists for a purpose. We are expected to live and move in line with this tendency.     

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2023, 12:39:42 PM »
I start off with the assumption that there is a purpose to life and evolution and that it is being guided by an inner consciousness. You people are starting off with the assumption that it is all just chance through random variations with NS.
But our 'assumption' is evidence based. Yours is simply a wish that you have - once you have evidence then we might consider your and our 'assumptions' to have equivalence. Until or unless you provide that evidence then an 'assumption' backed up by evidence will always trump an 'assumption' that isn't backed up by evidence.

Stranger

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2023, 12:48:38 PM »
Evolution also seems to have an objective of survival and reproduction...

It is staggeringly absurd that you continue to bring this up while dismissing natural selection. Are you really unable to see how natural selection will automatically lead to a situation in which every single surviving population is very good at survival and reproduction?

Really? I mean, have you given a single nanosecond of thought to this....?

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Sriram

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2023, 12:52:50 PM »


Well....bacteria are very good at survival and reproduction. Nothing else needs to evolve at all. Certainly not humans with mysticism and spiritual philosophies and  what not.

Stranger

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2023, 01:03:54 PM »
Well....bacteria are very good at survival and reproduction. Nothing else needs to evolve at all. Certainly not humans with mysticism and spiritual philosophies and  what not.

You just can't help yourself thinking in terms of purpose and design, can you? A purposeless process doesn't have any 'need' to do anything.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2023, 01:22:37 PM »

Well....bacteria are very good at survival and reproduction. Nothing else needs to evolve at all. Certainly not humans with mysticism and spiritual philosophies and  what not.
But that rather goes against your view that evolution is directed - if that was the case there would be nothing beyond organisms that can survive and reproduce.

It is the whole notion of evolutionary theory that supports the variety of species that are all able to survive and reproduce. Effectively that genomic variation will be sustained where it provides evolutionary advantage in terms of survival and is hereditary in terms of being able to be passed on to offspring.

Mysticism and spirituality (whatever those mean) have absolutely nothing to do with the matter, unless they are part of the reason why humans may have an evolutionary advantage, or are a by-product of those traits. And we've explained why, what you describe as mysticism and spirituality, are likely to form part of the key evolutionary elements for humans - those of intelligence, curiosity and the need to develop social structures necessary to protect and nurture young humans to the point where they are not massively vulnerable.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2023, 01:23:53 PM »
You just can't help yourself thinking in terms of purpose and design, can you? A purposeless process doesn't have any 'need' to do anything.
That's because Sriram cannot get beyond an achingly narrow anthropocentric mindset. Everything is seen through the narrow blinkers of the human condition.

Outrider

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2023, 02:17:33 PM »
Its the same old  again.

And yet you keep doing it.

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I start off with the assumption that there is a purpose to life and evolution and that it is being guided by an inner consciousness.

See. Told you. Why would you presume that?

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You people are starting off with the assumption that it is all just chance through random variations with NS.

That's not a 'presumption', it's an incredible rigorously tested scientific theory that has been open to criticism for decades and persists because it continues to not just accurately and adequately describe the observed phenomena, but has demonstrably predicted developments which have subsequently been born out. It is provisional, yes, but it is not directly comparable to your pseudoscientific counterclaim, and it is disingenuous of you to continue to try to maintain that they are in any way equivalent.

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I cannot establish that it is indeed as I assume but there is enough complexity and enough direction towards higher levels of intelligence and consciousness to believe that I am correct.

You can believe whatever you'd like, but if you post it here as though someone else were supposed to accept it then you need a better reason than that you have low standards for accepting claims.

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Evolution also seems to have an objective of survival and reproduction and an inner intelligence to guide it, as discussed in other threads.

And yet evolution can be explained without actually have an objective, or anything to impart that objective, and therefore could in fact be just a natural phenomenon. With that theory in mind we have looked and found a mechanism which appears to operate without any conscious input or defined target, and accounts for what's observed.

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i think it is nonsense to believe that belief in God and in non physical aspects of reality is due to random variations and natural selection....because it offers some survival advantage.  ::) I believe that our natural tendency to recognize hidden patterns and an inner intelligence in life.....exists for a purpose. We are expected to live and move in line with this tendency.

And, again, you're welcome to think that, but your personal incredulity doesn't trump the contents of the Natural History Museum, I'm afraid.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2023, 04:48:49 PM »
But that rather goes against your view that evolution is directed - if that was the case there would be nothing beyond organisms that can survive and reproduce.

It is the whole notion of evolutionary theory that supports the variety of species that are all able to survive and reproduce. Effectively that genomic variation will be sustained where it provides evolutionary advantage in terms of survival and is hereditary in terms of being able to be passed on to offspring.

Mysticism and spirituality (whatever those mean) have absolutely nothing to do with the matter, unless they are part of the reason why humans may have an evolutionary advantage, or are a by-product of those traits. And we've explained why, what you describe as mysticism and spirituality, are likely to form part of the key evolutionary elements for humans - those of intelligence, curiosity and the need to develop social structures necessary to protect and nurture young humans to the point where they are not massively vulnerable.



It is because evolution is directed that you have emergent properties ...well...emerging!  If it was just a mechanical process of surviving and reproducing...nothing more than bacteria would ever exist.

Complexity and various other emergent properties arise only because there is something behind evolution that intervenes at various points.

To say that belief in in God and other non physical aspects merely offer survival advantage is nonsense.

Stranger

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2023, 05:57:09 PM »
It is because evolution is directed that you have emergent properties ...well...emerging!  If it was just a mechanical process of surviving and reproducing...nothing more than bacteria would ever exist.

Are you trying to miss the point?

Nobody has ever claimed it is "just a mechanical process of surviving and reproducing". It's a question of differential rates of reproduction acting on variation. Variation doesn't stop just because it's achieved some basic level of survival and reproduction. You're once again thinking as if it had a goal, and sits back one day and says "well everything's surviving and reproducing okay, so I'll stop the variation".

Try to get you're stubborn mind round the concept that nothing is planning anything and there are no goals to get ticked off.

The variation never stops, so new variants will emerge that are better in some environment than the current population, so evolutionary change will never stop either. This is all really, really, really simple if you give up on the idea of a direction and plan.

Complexity and various other emergent properties arise only because there is something behind evolution that intervenes at various points.

To say that belief in in God and other non physical aspects merely offer survival advantage is nonsense.

Baseless assertions.  ::)
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torridon

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2023, 06:49:41 AM »

It is because evolution is directed that you have emergent properties ...well...emerging!  If it was just a mechanical process of surviving and reproducing...nothing more than bacteria would ever exist.

Complexity and various other emergent properties arise only because there is something behind evolution that intervenes at various points.

To say that belief in in God and other non physical aspects merely offer survival advantage is nonsense.

There is no evidence to support this view; it is all in your mind.  What kind of a plan is it that would result in 99% of all species that have ever existed going extinct ?  A pretty bad one ?

Sriram

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2023, 07:04:30 AM »

To keep saying that its all random variations..... is just an assertion. You don't know that its all really random and you don't even know what random really means.  Its the only way atheists can 'explain' things while circumventing intelligent intervention....so they keep asserting it.

We have seen that phenotypes can change without any variations. Evolution can happen without DNA variations.

At any rate......coming back.... reaching out to our inner superior consciousness (call it God if you like) is a natural tendency we have. This has developed to enable us to grow beyond our animal self  and to achieve a higher level of consciousness.

Some of you might think that our rational thinking is the superior faculty that we should be proud of. No! Rational thinking is a distraction. It has its usefulness no doubt, but  it is something that also creates the illusion of control and power in the ego and thereby makes us arrogant and over confident. It actually detracts from our goal. 

Rational thinking is necessary to achieve a degree of objectivity so that we can move away from the emotional self. It is a stage that we need to cross over and thereby recognize our inner Self.

Sriram

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2023, 07:07:00 AM »
There is no evidence to support this view; it is all in your mind.  What kind of a plan is it that would result in 99% of all species that have ever existed going extinct ?  A pretty bad one ?


99% of all computer hardware created earlier are now obsolete. So what? They facilitated the creation of current models.

Stranger

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2023, 08:36:57 AM »
To keep saying that its all random variations..... is just an assertion.

Nonsense. We can see observe what mutations happen. There is no observed pattern and no proposed mechanism that would make them causally linked to evolution.

...you don't even know what random really means.

The rest of us are not restricted to your level of ignorance.

We have seen that phenotypes can change without any variations. Evolution can happen without DNA variations.

Yet again for the hard-of-thinking, the ability of some phenotypes to change is something that itself had to evolve. It is not, and cannot be, something that drives evolution. For that we need genetic changes. This is really, really basic stuff. If you think you can have any sort of long term evolution without genetic change, you are living in a fantasy world.

At any rate......coming back.... reaching out to our inner superior consciousness (call it God if you like) is a natural tendency we have. This has developed to enable us to grow beyond our animal self  and to achieve a higher level of consciousness.

Some of you might think that our rational thinking is the superior faculty that we should be proud of. No! Rational thinking is a distraction. It has its usefulness no doubt, but  it is something that also creates the illusion of control and power in the ego and thereby makes us arrogant and over confident. It actually detracts from our goal. 

What were you saying about assertions? The hypocrisy is staggering.     ::)
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Outrider

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2023, 08:53:09 AM »
To keep saying that its all random variations..... is just an assertion.

No, it's a conclusion from the available evidence. A provisional conclusion, true, but not just an assertion.

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You don't know that its all really random and you don't even know what random really means.

It's not 'really' random, but at the functional level of evolutionary mechanisms it's effectively random.

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Its the only way atheists can 'explain' things while circumventing intelligent intervention....so they keep asserting it.

What has atheism got to do with this? Intelligent intervention doesn't need to be 'circumvented', you need to demonstrate it or the claim can be ignored.

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At any rate......coming back.... reaching out to our inner superior consciousness (call it God if you like) is a natural tendency we have.

We have a natural tendency to move upwards in buildings in the event of a fire - that doesn't make it the right choice.

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This has developed to enable us to grow beyond our animal self  and to achieve a higher level of consciousness.

You've failed to establish here, or anywhere else that I've seen, that we have a 'higher level of consciousness' or that such a thing might be a result of 'reaching out to our inner consciousness'.

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Some of you might think that our rational thinking is the superior faculty that we should be proud of.

How can we be proud of something that we have no control over? We can be grateful, perhaps, but proud?

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No! Rational thinking is a distraction.

Ah, the Govian chant of the ignoramus, railing against knowledge. "Down with learning, less of this sort of being justified in your conclusions..."

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It has its usefulness no doubt, but  it is something that also creates the illusion of control and power in the ego and thereby makes us arrogant and over confident.

In my experience those with the ego and the arrogance and the over-confidence are typically those with the least actual knowledge or grasp of the situation.

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It actually detracts from our goal.

I'm reasonably confident you and I have, if not different goals, then certainly a different understanding of what they look like.

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Rational thinking is necessary to achieve a degree of objectivity so that we can move away from the emotional self. It is a stage that we need to cross over and thereby recognize our inner Self.

Steaming, woo-shaped piles of unsubstantiated pseudo-waffle.

O.
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torridon

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2023, 06:50:55 AM »

99% of all computer hardware created earlier are now obsolete. So what? They facilitated the creation of current models.

Some kind of overarching cosmic intelligence would not be stumbling about like humans with their limited knowledge and understanding.  It would get things right from the get go.

Sriram

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2023, 07:02:29 AM »

There is nothing to get right. It is not about creating a perfect world ab initio. Its about evolution and development.

I am not talking about a God as a being. I am talking of God as a level of consciousness.

There are several  levels of consciousness....and we develop from lower levels to higher levels.  From very imperfect levels to more perfect levels....meaning....less stable levels to more stable levels.   

ekim

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2023, 11:56:38 AM »

Hi everyone,

Religions did not create a belief in God. A belief in God created religions. 

Humans have a natural tendency to believe in a God.  We seem to be hardwired (refer Andrew Newberg) to believe in a God. In other words, we humans have a need to reach out to things bigger than ourselves....as part of our spiritual evolution. 

Sriram

There are many who believe the word 'God' has a proto-Indo-European origin  meaning - 'that which is invoked'.  I suspect that this could include 'that which needs to be placated'.  If this is so then it could be applied to the source of any force which initiates pleasure or pain, desire or fear.  Examples might be Gods connected with volcanoes, the weather, the sea, war, love, wisdom etc. I suspect that the drivers were desire and fear projected on to outer forces which were given mental forms often humanoid. This possibly allowed 'influencers' to step in and organise invoking and placating rituals.  As there were many gods this perhaps became divisive rather than unitive.  A one God with all the attributes of the many was possibly less divisive. I suspect that the 'hardwiring' came from repetitive rituals organised by those with 'religious' power.

I see the, so called, spiritual path as one of discovery that is directed inwardly rather than externally in an attempt to transcend the mental forms and forces rather than add to them.

Stranger

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Re: Reaching out to God
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2023, 02:04:43 PM »
I am not talking about a God as a being. I am talking of God as a level of consciousness.

There are several  levels of consciousness....and we develop from lower levels to higher levels.  From very imperfect levels to more perfect levels....meaning....less stable levels to more stable levels.

Yet more baseless assertion.   ::)
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