Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

[Nearly Sane]

Because he loves me, gives me food and clothes, for a start

What about the babies it gives cancer to? You worship death, and pain, and rape.

[jeremyp]

Because he loves me, gives me food and clothes, for a start

God gives you food and clothes? I'd like to see that.

Do they appear by magic in your kitchen and wardrobe, or do you buy them in shops like everybody else?

[Sebastian Toe]

....gives me food and clothes, for a start

I have to buy my clothes and food.

[Gordon]

Because he loves me, gives me food and clothes, for a start

That's nice for you: mind you, I don't suppose that recently bereaved parents would find your 'God' quite so palatable.

[Outrider]

The offense is against God because he is the victim's creator.

Which means that it's his choice how this comes out - the universe isn't something launched that you wait to finish, the universe is a four (at least)-dimensional artefact where what we perceive as the future and the past are integral parts that co-exist. If there's a creator, it created this start-to-finish.

Eternal torment is a description of being forever cut off from God

Firstly, that's your interpretation and there are others.

Secondly, eternal torment (of whatever flavour) still doesn't jibe with the 'omnibenevolent' bit, still doesn't jibe with the 'ultimate morality' determining suitable consequences for a temporal 'crime'. Even if you ignore that God is responsible for what happens in God's creation, even if you presume despite the evidence that free will is a thing and that despite the lack of any reliable information humanity is still supposed to pick one fairy tale out of hundreds and act according the apparently arbitrary constraints of (maybe one particular sect's interpretation of) that story. Even you accept all of that, there is still the fundamental problem that you can't assert a paragon morality to something that would apply an eternal punishment for a temporal act.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

...and how do you spot it in others?
Anything specific to look for?
Is there a checklist?

How do you spot alienation in others?Are you serious?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you are happy that youe god could have stopped the murder and stood by watching it. Not so much a victim more an accomplice.

I’m thinking of the whole world consequences of constant divine intervention and manipulation rather than the one we have where miracles are rare. I’ll risk an analogy here even though my interlocutors are piss poor at them.
Imagine the murder taking place in a pedestrian shopping zone and a bus passes nearby.
The driver knows she is perfectly capable of mowing down the murderer with impunity with her bus but at what cost and consequence? AsI said those not gifted in analogy will have already stretched the metaphor too far and will have forgotten about other pedestrians and the passengers of the bus.

Is God an accomplice? Probably less so than the parents of the murderer or the society where such murders occur and probably falls outside legal definitions.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm cut off from God. It's far from being tormenting.

That might just be because you are not yet free from His grace.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What about the babies it gives cancer to? You worship death, and pain, and rape.

How can you tell the carcinogens we’re not man made or released. What would the consequences of a mutation free universe be? How does spud worship what you accuse him of worshipping? Your thesis......your burden.

[Nearly Sane]

How can you tell the carcinogens we’re not man made or released. What would the consequences of a mutation free universe be? How does spud worship what you accuse him of worshipping? Your thesis......your burden.

He defines what it does, and says he worships it.

Your god created cancer. You worship it. You dance about in the death and pain of others. It's all from the logic of your own statements. You condemn your god, and yourself by your words.

[Sebastian Toe]

How do you spot alienation in others?Are you serious?

Yes.
I need to know how you, Vlad, spots it in others.
If it's so easy then describing it should be easy also, shouldn't it?

[Outrider]

How do you spot alienation in others?Are you serious?

Different cultures have demonstrated varying interpretations of what's emblematic of a troubled mind vs what's an accepted part of the normal spectrum of humanity. Religious people, in particular, have a history of identifying natural human variation as some sort of illness, deficit or failure, so I think it's a reasonable request.

What is it that you think is evidence of 'alienation'?

O.

[jeremyp]

I’m thinking of the whole world consequences of constant divine intervention and manipulation rather than the one we have where miracles are rare. I’ll risk an analogy here even though my interlocutors are piss poor at them.
Imagine the murder taking place in a pedestrian shopping zone and a bus passes nearby.
The driver knows she is perfectly capable of mowing down the murderer with impunity with her bus but at what cost and consequence? AsI said those not gifted in analogy will have already stretched the metaphor too far and will have forgotten about other pedestrians and the passengers of the bus.

Is God an accomplice? Probably less so than the parents of the murderer or the society where such murders occur and probably falls outside legal definitions.

Christians claim God is omnipotent. Bus drivers are not. God could have stopped the murder quite easily without harming anybody but chose not to. I wouldn't go so far as to call him an accomplice but he did nothing when doing something would have cost him nothing. He's definitely guilty.

[jeremyp]

That might just be because you are not yet free from His grace.

When will I be free of his grace? When I'm dead? Bad news, a dead person cannot be tormented: they are dead. I won't feel anything.

[Spud]

That's nice for you: mind you, I don't suppose that recently bereaved parents would find your 'God' quite so palatable.

They can if they trust they will be reunited in heaven.

[Spud]

I have to buy my clothes and food.

God made the plants and animals we eat, and the raw materials for clothes.

[Nearly Sane]

They can if they trust they will be reunited in heaven.

With the murdering thug god that you worship? Your heaven is run by a deity that is a combination of Fred West, Josef Mengele, and Jimmy Savile.

[Nearly Sane]

God made the plants and animals we eat, and the raw materials for clothes.

'All things dull and ugly
All creatures short and squat
All things rude and nasty
The Lord God made the lot

Each little snake that poisons
Each little wasp that stings
He made their brutish venom
He made their horrid wings

All things sick and cancerous
All evil great and small
All things foul and dangerous
The Lord God made them all

Each nasty little hornet
Each beastly little squid
Who made the spiky urchin?
Who made the shocks? He did

All things scabbed and ulcerous
All pox both great and small
Putrid, foul and gangrenous
The Lord God made them all

Amen'

You worship rape and murder, and call it love.

[Gordon]

They can if they trust they will be reunited in heaven.

I suspect bereaved parents would tell you to stop the infantile and twee nonsense: the loss of one's child cannot be dismissed so tritely.

[Sebastian Toe]

God made the plants and animals we eat, and the raw materials for clothes.

I have to buy my clothes and food .

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Christians claim God is omnipotent. Bus drivers are not.

But I The analogy both have the power to stop the murder. Which means you are guilty of special pleading. It’s an analogy, both have the power but chose not to because to do so drastically changes the situation for others. In God’s case, cosmically. We would have a world where God is constantly yet specifically in time and space suspending this physical process or that. That then renders your next thesis....

God could have stopped the murder quite easily without harming anybody but chose not to.

.....Incorrect. To do so has potentially drastic consequences for the world

wouldn't go so far as to call him an accomplice

Me neither. Since you have asserted that God’s intervention is easy and changes nothing of much consequence, please justify that thesis.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Different cultures have demonstrated varying interpretations of what's emblematic of a troubled mind vs what's an accepted part of the normal spectrum of humanity.

Most have forms of alienation that are acceptable and those that are not. Would I be right in saying that your own culture has the best steer on psychological issues?

[jeremyp]

God made the plants and animals we eat, and the raw materials for clothes.

The plants and animals that I eat were made by farmers. And I don’t just mean that they were grown by farmers. If you compare modern farmed animals and plants with their wild God provided counterparts, they are very different.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

'All things dull and ugly
All creatures short and squat
All things rude and nasty
The Lord God made the lot

Each little snake that poisons
Each little wasp that stings
He made their brutish venom
He made their horrid wings

All things sick and cancerous
All evil great and small
All things foul and dangerous
The Lord God made them all

Each nasty little hornet
Each beastly little squid
Who made the spiky urchin?
Who made the shocks? He did

All things scabbed and ulcerous
All pox both great and small
Putrid, foul and gangrenous
The Lord God made them all

Amen'

You worship rape and murder, and call it love.

John Cleese is now appearing on GB News

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The plants and animals that I eat were made by farmers. And I don’t just mean that they were grown by farmers. If you compare modern farmed animals and plants with their wild God provided counterparts, they are very different.

what I like about this type of response is it is contrary to the claim that God is responsible for everything made by the same people. Good stuff from people bad stuff not people but God.