Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

[Outrider]

We're assuming for the sake of argument that God exists.

As depicted in the Bible? The god that kills children for mocking a bald man, commits genocide over the entire planet save one small family? Or, if you aren't a literalist, the god that inspires books that vilify gay people, excuses slavery and advocates for the forced marriage of women capture in battle, whilst not finding any room in its many lessons to call out rape as a bad thing?

That is not a good god.

O.

[Spud]

Jeremy,
I'm basing my answer on what it says, Viz: all that God made was very good when he had finished his work of creating.

[Outrider]

Jeremy,
I'm basing my answer on what it says, Viz: all that God made was very good when he had finished his work of creating.

If everything was good, what was the point of a tree of knowledge of good and evil?

O.

[jeremyp]

Jeremy,
I'm basing my answer on what it says, Viz: all that God made was very good when he had finished his work of creating.

So tell us about tapeworms.

[Gordon]

Jeremy,
I'm basing my answer on what it says, Viz: all that God made was very good when he had finished his work of creating.

Never seen that in Viz: perhaps you are reading a different comic.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

He defines what it does, and says he worships it.

Your god created cancer. You worship it. You dance about in the death and pain of others. It's all from the logic of your own statements. You condemn your god, and yourself by your words.

No he partially defines what it is and then there is the question of whether you get what he is trying to convey. To me you don’t.

God has created a rational and logical world and mutation is part of that. Would you rather an irrational and illogical one? Lastly what you mean by worship isn’t quite chiming with me. Perhaps you could explain yourself.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Different cultures have demonstrated varying interpretations of what's emblematic of a troubled mind vs what's an accepted part of the normal spectrum of humanity. Religious people, in particular, have a history of identifying natural human variation as some sort of illness, deficit or failure, so I think it's a reasonable request.

What is it that you think is evidence of 'alienation'?

O.

As may be as all this is it contains error. I am not trying to portray alienation as a classic disease or illness or in the category of having a troubled mind. Alienation means estrangement. Something which is universal to our species and whose definition is not affected culture by culture.

Alienation from God is not proposed as a human variation but as something held in common.

[Nearly Sane]

No he partially defines what it is and then there is the question of whether you get what he is trying to convey. To me you don’t.

God has created a rational and logical world and mutation is part of that. Would you rather an irrational and illogical one? Lastly what you mean by worship isn’t quite chiming with me. Perhaps you could explain yourself.

Will there be cancer in heaven?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, it's not. It's saying that of you are claoming the gokd stuff because he created everything, then he created the bad stuff. It's called a hypothetical based on the ligiv of Spud and yourself. Even had this not been explained to you numerous times, you would have to be either very stupid, lying or both to misrepresent it in this way.

No I think what we are saying is that God did not create evil. Evil is not an arrangement of matter. I am not denying he created processes that cause what some would call natural ills or natural evil. My focus and i’m Sure Spuds is too is the alienation from God due to sin.
Even if one cannot hold that man literally brought death to the world it is clear that alienation from God puts death in a terrible light.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Your point, caller?

If the python’s were so smart why is Cleese on GB news?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is he alienated from the rest of the MP team?

You could say that.

[Nearly Sane]

If the python’s were so smart why is Cleese on GB news?

Thank you for your illustration of the ad hominem fallacy, caller.

[Nearly Sane]

No I think what we are saying is that God did not create evil. Evil is not an arrangement of matter. I am not denying he created processes that cause what some would call natural ills or natural evil. My focus and i’m Sure Spuds is too is the alienation from God die to sin.
Even if one cannot hold that man literally brought death to the world it is clear that alienation from God puts death in a terrible light.

  Can your 'god' prevent a child being raped? Can it stop a child from dying in pain from leukeamia?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But the Christian claim is that God suspends the laws of nature in specific times and places on a regular basis.

Not really, The bible itself frequently implicitly refers to miracles being special and rare and occurrences such as spiritual conversion, visions, prophecy etc aren’t covered by the laws of nature in any case.

God apparently saves individuals that survive air crashes, but does nothing to stop the air crash from happening at all.

How do you know he hasn’t ever miraculously stopped an air crash?

You need to step back a bit and try to read your posts as somebody who doesn't believe in your god would. Then you'll see that, to us, they are make no sense. It really does look like you are making apologies for a god that does not give a fuck about most people and pretending he loves us.

It isn’t about you not believing in God...it’s about caricaturing my beliefs about God and how to get people who should know better to stop doing it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Will there be cancer in heaven?

I would say no since we will be completely spiritual beings.
What would Cancer be though given unbroken communion with God?

[Nearly Sane]

I would say no since we will be completely spiritual beings.
What would Cancer be though given unbroken communion with God?

So why did your god create something where cancer could occur?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So why did your god create something where cancer could occur?

Cancer is due to mutation which is significant in evolution. I would ask whether a universe where the mutations that specifically caused cancer and the things that give rise to them were specially eradicated,was a reasonable and logical one.

[Nearly Sane]

Cancer is due to mutation which is significant in evolution. I would ask whether a universe where the mutations that specifically caused cancer and the things that give rise to them were specially eradicated be a reasonable and logical one.

What would be unreasonable and illogical about it? Are 'miracles' reasonable and logical?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What would be unreasonable and illogical about it? Are 'miracles' reasonable and logical?

cause effect and consequence would have to be eliminated although I grant a humean like yourself probably won’t respond to that...and rationality and logicality is compromised by bending physical laws to subjective wish and whim e.g. Why can’t bad people be the one’s who get cancer.

One can only imagine the gymnastics that would have to occur at the particle level. Science might even not be a thing.

Is it reasonable for God to intervene? Yes but only very occasionally. Do I think resurrection and localised gravimetric distortion to be impossible for technology in the future? Possibly not.

[Outrider]

As may be as all this is it contains error. I am not trying to portray alienation as a classic disease or illness or in the category of having a troubled mind. Alienation means estrangement. Something which is universal to our species and whose definition is not affected culture by culture.

Alienation from God is not proposed as a human variation but as something held in common.

So your evidence of 'alienation from God' is the fact that we're human. How do you distinguish that from, say, no alienation because the god doesn't exist? If everyone is 'alienated' it's a meaningless concept, it's just 'being human'.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

cause effect and consequence would have to be eliminated although I grant a humean like yourself probably won’t respond to that...and rationality and logicality is compromised by bending physical laws to subjective wish and whim e.g. Why can’t bad people be the one’s who get cancer.

One can only imagine the gymnastics that would have to occur at the particle level. Science might even not be a thing.

Is it reasonable for God to intervene? Yes but only very occasionally. Do I think resurrection and localised gravimetric distortion to be impossible for technology in the future? Possibly not.

Why would cause and effect be eliminated.? You just choose an initial set of circumstances where it wouldn't happen. You have already accepted that is possible in your idea of heaven .

You then say it's ok for your god to break cause and effect 'occasionally'. That's like being a little pregnant.

And you seem to think that your god is a technologically restricted entity. Is that what you think?

[jeremyp]

No he partially defines what it is and then there is the question of whether you get what he is trying to convey. To me you don’t.

God has created a rational and logical world and mutation is part of that. Would you rather an irrational and illogical one?

I'd rather one without cancer. Is it your claim that God cannot create a rational and logical world that doesn't have cancer in it?

[jeremyp]

Not really, The bible itself frequently implicitly refers to miracles being special and rare and occurrences such as spiritual conversion, visions, prophecy etc

Are you denying that changing water into wine is in contravention of physical law? It would require, for example, the manufacture of carbon which is a process that physical law dictates requires the conditions present inside stars.

Or is God just a really good conjuror?

How do you know he hasn’t ever miraculously stopped an air crash?

I don't but that is not the scenario. The scenario is one where God miraculously saves a few people but leaves everybody else to die. He certainly doesn't miraculously stop all air crashes but the claim is that he will save a select few of the people in the ones he doesn't stop.

[Spud]

But we do all the work. It's the same for anything where you might consider thanking God. It always turns out that it's actually humans doing the work.

It's the mirror of the situation where something bad has happened. You're quite happy to say that the bad things done by humans are all their own work. So why do you begrudge the same courtesy to humans that do good things.

Conversely, if you want to ascribe the good things we do to God, you must logically also ascribe the bad things to God. If God provides us with food and clothing, he also provides murderers with guns and knives.
No, I think you are trying to avoid admitting that your god is bad.

If people want to use for evil the things God intended them to use for good, does that mean God is evil for providing them?

[jeremyp]

If people want to use for evil the things God intended them to use for good, does that mean God is evil for providing them?

If people want to use for good the things that God intended them to use for evil, does that mean God is good for providing them.

The thing is that good things happen and bad things happen. Also people do good things and people do bad things. You are quite happy to take the credit for the good on God's behalf, but very reluctant to take the blame for the bad on God's behalf , even though the evidence for his involvement is exactly the same on both sides of the equation. You are not being honest with yourself.

Any thoughts on why God gave us tapeworms, tsetse flies and the plasmodium parasite?