Author Topic: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy  (Read 39208 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #700 on: December 18, 2023, 10:21:56 AM »
Comical special pleading.
Comical special pleading would be more in the realm of “Yes, the universe is contingent...but on itself

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #701 on: December 18, 2023, 10:23:47 AM »
Vlad,

Yes Vlad it is.

Another would be that the universe must be part of something else because its constituent parts are part of something else (ie, the universe)

Yes, you’ve abandoned “the universe is contingent on something else because its parts are contingent on each other” to “the universe is part of something else on because its parts are part of something else”.

It’s still fallacy of composition though: you take a property of the parts (ie, their “partness”) and just assume that partness must also therefore be a property of the universe.

I don’t now why, and you seem determined to not tell us.   

No, what is asserted (not argued at all) is that the universe is contingent on something else because it’s also contingent on its parts. I have no idea why though as it’s a non sequitur.

Oh the irony!
Since there’s no defence against indestructible ignorance, i’ll Leave it here”

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #702 on: December 18, 2023, 10:31:08 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Since there’s no defence against indestructible ignorance, i’ll Leave it here”

Meaning, "Since I have no defence against the arguments I can't rebut I'll run away and hope no-one notices".

That's not surprising – after all, you have form for it. You need to remember though that if ever you're daft enough to essay the argument from contingency again the same land mine awaits you: you have no argument to support your assertion that the fact of an entity consisting of (ie, being contingent on) its parts means that the entity must also be part of (ie, be contingent on) something else

Thanks for trying though. 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 10:47:59 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #703 on: December 18, 2023, 11:00:08 AM »
Comical special pleading would be more in the realm of “Yes, the universe is contingent...but on itself

But we are all still waiting for you to make an argument that the universe is contingent on anything else. You keep insisting that it's contingent on its parts but that isn't an external contingency.

You are the only one here who is saying it's contingent on itself.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #704 on: December 18, 2023, 11:04:06 AM »
Vlad,

Meaning, "Since I have no defence against the arguments I can't rebut I'll run away and hope no-one notices".

That's not surprising – after all, you have form for it. You need to remember though that if ever you're daft enough to essay the argument from contingency again the same land mine awaits you: you have no argument to support your assertion that the fact of an entity consisting of (ie, being contingent on) its parts means that the entity must also be part of (ie, be contingent on) something else

Thanks for trying though.
Two quick points further to your invincible ignorance. 1) At no point in this matter have I referred to the universe as part of something. I don't see that as relevant.

2) You and the posse seem to have no trouble with the idea of the universe being part of a multiverse or as one of the serial universes described by Penrose.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #705 on: December 18, 2023, 11:16:53 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Two quick points further to your invincible ignorance.

You can't accuse someone of being ignorant of an argument you've shown no sign of having.

Quote
1) At no point in this matter have I referred to the universe as part of something. I don't see that as relevant.

So, according to you, the universe isn't part of your god's creation project then?

That's pretty radical for a supposed Christian, but OK. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote
2) You and the posse...

I don't have a "posse".

Quote
...seem to have no trouble with the idea of the universe being part of a multiverse or as one of the serial universes described by Penrose

No, but I do have a "difficulty" with your unargued assertion that the fact of being made of/contingent on its parts implies that the universe must also be part of/contingent on something else.

Perhaps if you bothered making an argument to that effect rather than implying the argument from composition that difficulty would go away? 

What's stopping you? Surely it can't be that you don't actually have that argument can it?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 12:46:34 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #706 on: December 18, 2023, 11:30:51 AM »
Two quick points further to your invincible ignorance. 1) At no point in this matter have I referred to the universe as part of something. I don't see that as relevant.

2) You and the posse seem to have no trouble with the idea of the universe being part of a multiverse or as one of the serial universes described by Penrose.

Still running away from providing the first hint of an argument that the universe must depend on anything else. You can't blame your inability to produce any reasoning on other people's supposed ignorance.

And BTW nobody is saying that the multiverse ideas are necessarily true. They are hypothetical at best.
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SteveH

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #707 on: December 18, 2023, 12:34:49 PM »
The parts of the universe being contingent does not mean that the universe is contingent. In fact, I am going to argue that the universe's existence is necessary. One property of a necessarily-existing thing is that it's impossible to imagine it not existing without falling into a logical contradiction, and that, I put it to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is the case with the universe itself: how can absolutely nothing exist - bear in mind that that means not only physical objects, but time and space? It can't - ergo, the universe exists necessarily.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #708 on: December 18, 2023, 12:39:32 PM »
The parts of the universe being contingent does not mean that the universe is contingent. In fact, I am going to argue that the universe's existence is necessary. One property of a necessarily-existing thing is that it's impossible to imagine it not existing without falling into a logical contradiction, and that, I put it to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is the case with the universe itself: how can absolutely nothing exist - bear in mind that that means not only physical objects, but time and space? It can't - ergo, the universe exists necessarily.
At last...someone with balls.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #709 on: December 18, 2023, 12:40:11 PM »
The parts of the universe being contingent does not mean that the universe is contingent. In fact, I am going to argue that the universe's existence is necessary. One property of a necessarily-existing thing is that it's impossible to imagine it not existing without falling into a logical contradiction, and that, I put it to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is the case with the universe itself: how can absolutely nothing exist - bear in mind that that means not only physical objects, but time and space? It can't - ergo, the universe exists necessarily.
Pretty much on board with that - it does mean though that you are now effectively stating the question of 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' is invalid.

Where I disagree is that I'm not convinced that the idea of 'necessary' or 'contingent' makes much sense in this context.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #710 on: December 18, 2023, 12:40:56 PM »
At last...someone with balls.
You should know. You are the king of bollocks.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #711 on: December 18, 2023, 12:42:21 PM »
You should know. You are the king of bollocks.
That would make you my subject.

SteveH

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #712 on: December 18, 2023, 12:44:30 PM »
Pretty much on board with that - it does mean though that you are now effectively stating the question of 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' is invalid.
Yes, I know. Having thought about it more, I think that it is indeed invalid.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #713 on: December 18, 2023, 12:45:48 PM »
That would make you my subject.
To the guillotine!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #714 on: December 18, 2023, 12:46:11 PM »
Yes, I know. Having thought about it more, I think that it is indeed invalid.
Kudos!

SteveH

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #715 on: December 18, 2023, 12:50:18 PM »
The parts of the universe being contingent does not mean that the universe is contingent. In fact, I am going to argue that the universe's existence is necessary. One property of a necessarily-existing thing is that it's impossible to imagine it not existing without falling into a logical contradiction, and that, I put it to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is the case with the universe itself: how can absolutely nothing exist - bear in mind that that means not only physical objects, but time and space? It can't - ergo, the universe exists necessarily.
One minor caveat - A universe is necessary, but it doesn't have to be THIS universe.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 12:53:17 PM by SteveH »
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #716 on: December 18, 2023, 01:23:55 PM »
Vlad,

So are we done here now? Your argument-free assertion remains: “The universe comprises the sum of its parts, therefore the universe is contingent on something other than the sum of its parts”.

I have no idea why you think this and nor, despite numerous invitations to tell us, do you seem inclined to tell us why you think this.

Oh well. Feel free to come back to it though if ever you do find a logically sound justifying argument for that “therefore” that you’re prepared to share.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #717 on: December 18, 2023, 02:03:38 PM »
Vlad,

So are we done here now? Your argument-free assertion remains: “The universe comprises the sum of its parts, therefore the universe is contingent on something other than the sum of its parts”.

I have no idea why you think this and nor, despite numerous invitations to tell us, do you seem inclined to tell us why you think this.

Oh well. Feel free to come back to it though if ever you do find a logically sound justifying argument for that “therefore” that you’re prepared to share.
Dear old Hillside, somebody abandons him because of his invincible ignorance and he thinks he's won.

jeremyp

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #718 on: December 18, 2023, 02:04:21 PM »
How we present and are perceived is different to what we substantially are.
Another kind of division.

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If we go back to Steve’s diagram.

The Father is God, The son is God, The Holy Spirit is God
But they are not each other (don't leave out the lines round the perimeter of Steve's diagram) - hence God is divisible

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The handbreak is not the car

Certainly not. The hand break is best sent to A&E.

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The engine is not the car, The boot is not the car.

And Jesus is not identical with God because there are two other persons involved as well.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #719 on: December 18, 2023, 02:04:26 PM »
One minor caveat - A universe is necessary, but it doesn't have to be THIS universe.
Go Steve!

Stranger

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #720 on: December 18, 2023, 02:07:35 PM »
Go Steve!

Still waiting for your argument, Vlad.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #721 on: December 18, 2023, 02:09:41 PM »
Go Steve!
So you agree with him that 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' is an invalid question?

jeremyp

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #722 on: December 18, 2023, 02:10:46 PM »
Yes, I know. Having thought about it more, I think that it is indeed invalid.

No it isn't. Your argument that the Universe is necessary is simply an answer to it. It's stating "the Universe couldn't not exist".

I don't like it because arguments about the real world that rely only on logical deduction set alarm bells ringing in my head. I suspect there is a flaw in it.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #723 on: December 18, 2023, 02:17:21 PM »
No it isn't. Your argument that the Universe is necessary is simply an answer to it. It's stating "the Universe couldn't not exist".

I don't like it because arguments about the real world that rely only on logical deduction set alarm bells ringing in my head. I suspect there is a flaw in it.
So do you think that the question 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' Is a valid one?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #724 on: December 18, 2023, 02:25:00 PM »
So you agree with him that 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' is an invalid question?
I'm not sure where we(you) are with this.
It is an invalid question, it might be an invalid question or it's a question that has been answered I.e. "there isn't nothing because there is a necessary being". Which is it?