Author Topic: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy  (Read 35484 times)

Stranger

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #750 on: December 19, 2023, 09:12:30 AM »
Block time? Why that block and not another?

Why father, son and holy spook, rather than something different?

Still no reasoning from 'has parts' to 'depends on something else'.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #751 on: December 19, 2023, 10:00:54 AM »
Vlad,

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I'm sorry Hillside but nothing which is contingent can be necessary..

I’m sorry Vlad but just re-defining your claim to hide it isn’t helping you either. If you now want to confine yourself to “something made of parts is contingent on those parts”, so what?  If though you want to cling to your actual claim, namely “being made of parts means the universe must be contingent on something other than those parts” then still you have all your work ahead of you to make an argument to justify it.

What should we make of your continued running way rather than making that argument?   

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JeremyP realises this since he wants to argue the contingency of God.

Anyone who owns a bike or makes a cake knows this. So what though?
"Don't make me come down there."

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #752 on: December 19, 2023, 10:01:46 AM »
Why father, son and holy spook, rather than something different?

Still no reasoning from 'has parts' to 'depends on something else'.
Since God is the necessary being, he does what he likes and reveals himself however he likes.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #753 on: December 19, 2023, 10:04:15 AM »
Vlad,

I’m sorry Vlad but just re-defining your claim to hide it isn’t helping you either. If you now want to confine yourself to “something made of parts is contingent on those parts”, so what?  If though you want to cling to your actual claim, namely “being made of parts means the universe must be contingent on something other than those parts” then still you have all your work ahead of you to make an argument to justify it.

What should we make of your continued running way rather than making that argument?   

Anyone who owns a bike or makes a cake knows this. So what though?
Hillside, you know the rules, you have a collection of contingent things in front of you. Your time starts now.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #754 on: December 19, 2023, 10:09:19 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Hillside, you know the rules, you have a collection of contingent things in front of you. Your time starts now.

I don't need time - my request for your justifying argument for your claim remains open. You on the other hand have had the clock ticking since you were asked to justify your assertion "a universe contingent on its parts must therefore also be contingent on something other than those parts".

How long should we give it before you're timed out would you say? Another hour? Another day perhaps?

The clock's ticking... 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #755 on: December 19, 2023, 10:21:13 AM »
Since God is the necessary being, he does what he likes and reveals himself however he likes.

Now back to unargued assertion.   ::)

Still no reasoning from 'has parts' to 'depends on something else'.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #756 on: December 19, 2023, 10:51:01 AM »
Now back to unargued assertion.   ::)

Still no reasoning from 'has parts' to 'depends on something else'.
Really? What else could control a necessary being?

Stranger

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #757 on: December 19, 2023, 11:09:19 AM »
Really? What else could control a necessary being?

I have no idea how that is an answer to anything I said. 

What are you wittering about? Anything but address the point, I guess.

Still no reasoning from 'has parts' to 'depends on something else'.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #758 on: December 19, 2023, 11:12:42 AM »
Vlad,

FYI it's now been an hour since I last asked you again for an argument to justify your assertion "universe contingent on its parts, therefore universe also contingent on something other than its parts".

Do you need a bit more time to get your ducks in a row on that - another hour perhaps? Maybe two?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Outrider

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #759 on: December 19, 2023, 12:43:59 PM »
Really? What else could control a necessary being?

Your claim, your burden of proof still. Even if you disprove other ideas it does nothing to support your own unsubstantiated claims.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #760 on: December 19, 2023, 01:33:47 PM »
Your claim, your burden of proof still. Even if you disprove other ideas it does nothing to support your own unsubstantiated claims.

O.
At the moment, having stated that the universe is the resultant of all contingent things Stranger and Hillside are left with a load of contingent stuff they Don 't seem to know what to do with.

The answer to contingency is the necessary entity and that is independent of the things contingent on it.

Hillside doesn't want to take it from me? Fine. He's the one left with all that contingency.

Stranger

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #761 on: December 19, 2023, 01:51:05 PM »
At the moment, having stated that the universe is the resultant of all contingent things Stranger and Hillside are left with a load of contingent stuff they Don 't seem to know what to do with.

Nobody is stuck here except for you. You have declared that the universe has parts and must therefore depend on something else that isn't a part or the whole, but you cannot provide any argument to link the two.

So there you are stuck with nothing but your comforting little contingency/necessity mantras.

Where is the logic that goes from 'having parts' to 'depends on something else'?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #762 on: December 19, 2023, 01:52:44 PM »
Vlad,

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At the moment, having stated that the universe is the resultant of all contingent things Stranger and Hillside are left with a load of contingent stuff they Don 't seem to know what to do with.

Gibberish. What are you even trying to say here?

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The answer to contingency is the necessary entity and that is independent of the things contingent on it.

No it isn’t when the only contingency so far is the contingency of the universe on its component parts. You’ve yet to demonstrate that the universe is contingent on something other than its parts, despite being invited to do so many times now.

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Hillside doesn't want to take it from me? Fine. He's the one left with all that contingency.

Hillside doesn’t take it from you your entirely unargued assertion that because the universe is contingent on its parts it must also therefore be contingent on something other than its parts.

There is no “all that contingency” left. Sorry, but them’s the actual breaks. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Outrider

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #763 on: December 19, 2023, 03:16:16 PM »
At the moment, having stated that the universe is the resultant of all contingent things Stranger and Hillside are left with a load of contingent stuff they Don 't seem to know what to do with.

Seems to me they've batted that whiffleball straight back into your court with their request that you explain why a universe of potentially contingent things necessarily means the universe is contingent upon something else that you're still avoiding addressing.

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The answer to contingency is the necessary entity and that is independent of the things contingent on it.

An answer to contingency, not 'the' answer, unless you've got a hell of a lot more explanation than you're providing here. Last time we were here it was a thousand rounds of you failing to explain why an infinite regress wasn't viable. I guess we just need to find whatever the hell it is that your answers are contingent upon...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #764 on: December 19, 2023, 03:25:49 PM »
Seems to me they've batted that whiffleball straight back into your court with their request that you explain why a universe of potentially contingent things necessarily means the universe is contingent upon something else that you're still avoiding addressing.

An answer to contingency, not 'the' answer, unless you've got a hell of a lot more explanation than you're providing here. Last time we were here it was a thousand rounds of you failing to explain why an infinite regress wasn't viable. I guess we just need to find whatever the hell it is that your answers are contingent upon...

O.
Can you show an infinite regress is viable? Surely that's a positive claim that you have to justify?

Outrider

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #765 on: December 19, 2023, 03:41:54 PM »
Can you show an infinite regress is viable? Surely that's a positive claim that you have to justify?

Viable, yes. Wherever you've got to in the chain of cause and effect, that has a predicate of some sort. I can't prove that it's the case, but the viability seems inherent to the notion. From memory I believe I was not so much making the claim as positing it as an objection to the need for an 'unmoved mover'.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #766 on: December 19, 2023, 04:06:24 PM »
Viable, yes. Wherever you've got to in the chain of cause and effect, that has a predicate of some sort. I can't prove that it's the case, but the viability seems inherent to the notion. From memory I believe I was not so much making the claim as positing it as an objection to the need for an 'unmoved mover'.

O.
So you are just asserting it's viable

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #767 on: December 19, 2023, 04:20:27 PM »
Seems to me they've batted that whiffleball straight back into your court with their request that you explain why a universe of potentially contingent things necessarily means the universe is contingent upon something else that you're still avoiding addressing.
I should explain why contingent things should be contingent on something? Are you being serious? That's all I'm asking since the reductionists here have the universe as merely the sum of contingent things. They don't have to take notice that anything, being contingent is contingent on something else?
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An answer to contingency, not 'the' answer, unless you've got a hell of a lot more explanation than you're providing here. Last time we were here it was a thousand rounds of you failing to explain why an infinite regress wasn't viable. I guess we just need to find whatever the hell it is that your answers are contingent upon...

O.
And infinite regress does not actually provide an answer to what the universe is contingent on.It is the kicking of the can down the road and literally multiplies entities beyond necessity without answering anything. Causal loops do not fare much better.

The universe is contingent because it has parts whether those parts were all contingent beings or necessary beings.

However given the PSR supposing the universe was infinite the question why an infinite universe and not non existence would remain.

As a matter of interest what is it that you guys forbid a necessary entity?

Outrider

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #768 on: December 19, 2023, 04:21:49 PM »
So you are just asserting it's viable

No, I'm logically extrapolating from the existing series, in the absence of any strong reason to think that anything changes.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #769 on: December 19, 2023, 04:26:21 PM »
No, I'm logically extrapolating from the existing series, in the absence of any strong reason to think that anything changes.

O.
So there's an absence of change in a series of contingent changes?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #770 on: December 19, 2023, 04:30:52 PM »
No, I'm logically extrapolating from the existing series, in the absence of any strong reason to think that anything changes.

O.
You are asserting that an inifinite regress is possible. Extrapolating that from a finite approach doesn't work as you haven't shown infinity is possible in this.

Stranger

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #771 on: December 19, 2023, 04:34:51 PM »
I should explain why contingent things should be contingent on something? Are you being serious? That's all I'm asking since the reductionists here have the universe as merely the sum of contingent things. They don't have to take notice that anything, being contingent is contingent on something else?

I had a little bet with myself earlier that you'd answer Outrider or NS rather than me or blue who asked you the direct question that you are still running away from. You have said that the universe is made of parts but we are still waiting for you to link that fact to the idea that it must depend on something else that isn't a part or the whole.

And waiting, and waiting, and waiting.....

Where is the logic that goes from 'having parts' to 'depends on something else'?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Outrider

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #772 on: December 19, 2023, 04:36:50 PM »
I should explain why contingent things should be contingent on something? Are you being serious?

No, I believe you should explain why a universe that contains contingent things is therefore necessarily contingent itself upon something else.

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That's all I'm asking since the reductionists here have the universe as merely the sum of contingent things.

You keep with that sneering, dismissive, 'merely', as though your alternative is superior because it introduces something. Maybe those contingent things are contingent upon the universe, as seems plausible.

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And infinite regress does not actually provide an answer to what the universe is contingent on.

It doesn't need to, it's just there to show that you can't necessarily conclude that there must be some ultimately incontingent thing.

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It is the kicking of the can down the road and literally multiplies entities beyond necessity without answering anything.

Doesn't have to 'multiply entities' at all, there is just the energy of the cosmos with arranges and rearranges itself manifesting universe after universe after universe, infinitely.

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Causal loops do not fare much better.

A little less logically intuitive, but for those of us with, say, a mechanical bent still a better explanation that inexplicably uncaused complex divine being magicked it.

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The universe is contingent because it has parts whether those parts were all contingent beings or necessary beings.

That doesn't follow. That the things in the universe are contingent (on, amongst other things, the universe) does not make the universe necessarily contingent upon anything else.

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As a matter of interest what is it that you guys forbids a necessary entity?

I can't speak for everyone, but for me it's 'well where did that come from?'

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Outrider

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #773 on: December 19, 2023, 04:39:50 PM »
So there's an absence of change in a series of contingent changes?

Not necessarily, but you'd need to show not just that a fundamental change from contingent causes to non-contingent ones was not just possible but necessary or it remains viable.

You are asserting that an inifinite regress is possible. Extrapolating that from a finite approach doesn't work as you haven't shown infinity is possible in this.

I don't need to show that, I just need to show that cause and effect chaining is viable - which we see that it is from everyday experience. I'm not trying to prove that it definitively is the case, just that it's a possibility - infinity isn't something I need to demonstrate, it's the conclusion of a chain in which each element appears to have a predicate.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

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Re: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
« Reply #774 on: December 19, 2023, 04:41:03 PM »
I had a little bet with myself earlier that you'd answer Outrider or NS rather than me or blue who asked you the direct question that you are still running away from. You have said that the universe is made of parts but we are still waiting for you to link that fact to the idea that it must depend on something else that isn't a part or the whole.

And waiting, and waiting, and waiting.....

Where is the logic that goes from 'having parts' to 'depends on something else'?
I haven't posted anything to Vlad on this today so why would he answer me?