Author Topic: Three stages  (Read 9916 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2023, 09:44:04 AM »

Critical thinking is good. It has helped in science and lots of areas. I agree with that.  I am however talking of HABITUAL skepticism.  If skepticism becomes a habit and a person can't help being skeptical and something he is very proud of ....it can be a liability....even in science.
I don't think you understand what proper scepticism is. It doesn't mean rejecting everything for the sake of it.

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Evidence, as we have seen many times, is not always readily available.
True.

 
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We have to accept certain things on a broad  surmise and then start looking for evidence.

No we don't. We are allowed to say "I don't know".

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Many things such as Relativity for example was broadly accepted and then people started looking for the evidence.

Nope. Special Relativity was proposed to account for the apparent inconsistency between Maxwell's equations and Galileo's principle of relativity. General relativity was proposed to extend SR to acceleration and gravity and to explain some problems with Newtonian gravity.

Neither were dreamed up out of thin air and GR certainly wasn't generally accepted until it had been experimentally verified.

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But if we take to a habit of skepticism we can never progress beyond the obvious thing for which evidence is readily available. The not so obvious phenomenon will escape our eyes.  It is always lateral thinkers and open minded people (even among scientists) who come up with path breaking ideas.....never the habitual skeptics.

Scepticism doesn't rule out creativity. All it means is that, if you do come up with some spectacular idea, we don't have to believe it without good reason.

Your brand of dreaming hasn't advanced human knowledge in any way, simply because we can't show if your ideas are right or wrong.
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ekim

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2023, 10:42:44 AM »
Scepticism, which is a result of sound reasoning and/or scientific evidence, doesn't have to be negative at all. Anyone, whether they be sceptical or 'starry eyed optimist' may be driven by 'an egotistical superiority complex'. The bottom line is whether that scepticism is well founded. For the scientist that should mean  having as close as objective an attitude as possible and also show a willingness to change one's mind when the evidence demands it.
I don't disagree with that as an objective attitude provided that you can believe the person claiming to use it, especially in this age of disinformation.  The problem arises when a person who has had a strong inner 'experience' but cannot provide evidence of it to an outside observer.  This is probably why it is conveyed by the language of mythos which to the staunch objective sceptic is called woo.

Enki

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2023, 11:00:32 AM »

Critical thinking is good. It has helped in science and lots of areas. I agree with that.  I am however talking of HABITUAL skepticism.  If skepticism becomes a habit and a person can't help being skeptical and something he is very proud of ....it can be a liability....even in science.

Evidence, as we have seen many times, is not always readily available.  We have to accept certain things on a broad  surmise and then start looking for evidence. Many things such as Relativity for example was broadly accepted and then people started looking for the evidence.

But if we take to a habit of skepticism we can never progress beyond the obvious thing for which evidence is readily available. The not so obvious phenomenon will escape our eyes.  It is always lateral thinkers and open minded people (even among scientists) who come up with path breaking ideas.....never the habitual skeptics.

I know of no one here who is your 'habitual' skeptic. When people on here are skeptical it is usually associated with specific ideas for which there is no evidence or for which there are more rational explanations. That does not stop the skeptic from being open minded at all. indeed, the person who is skeptical often has alternative explanations which may well be better explanations.

We should always consider rather than accept things on a 'broad surmise' and if we find them wanting in the fact that there is no reliable evidence forthcoming then we either take the stance of 'don't know' or, if there is a viable alternative which has rationality and/or reliable evidence to support it, we may well favour that alternative.
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Enki

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2023, 11:09:04 AM »
I don't disagree with that as an objective attitude provided that you can believe the person claiming to use it, especially in this age of disinformation.

Good. I'm glad you agree.

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The problem arises when a person who has had a strong inner 'experience' but cannot provide evidence of it to an outside observer.  This is probably why it is conveyed by the language of mythos which to the staunch objective sceptic is called woo.

I don't see that as a problem at all. The problem comes when those with such experiences try to impose their views as some sort of truth  for everyone.
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jeremyp

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2023, 12:58:40 PM »

I don't see that as a problem at all. The problem comes when those with such experiences try to impose their views as some sort of truth  for everyone.

And then try to tell the rest of us that we closed minded or immature just because we don't accept them at their word.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2023, 01:19:48 PM »
Hi everyone,

I have always maintained that atheism and materialism are just skeptical reactions to a well accepted norm. An adolescent reaction in fact.

Most atheists choose to become atheists at around the age of 12/13 or so when adolescence and skepticism sets in.  After that they just continue with that mindset all their life without growing out of it.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/20/three-stages/

We all go through three stages...childhood, adolescent and maturity.  Blind believers and hero worshipers are those who are stuck at childhood level. Habitual skeptics are those stuck with adolescence. Mature people are neither stuck with blind belief nor with blind materialism.  They become open to many possibilities.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram
I have no issue with your basic premise of three stages - in terms of fatherhood my Dad used to describe it as 'Daddy knows everything'; 'Dad knows nothing' and 'Actually Dad knows some things after all'.

But then you go down the insulting, and frankly rather infantile, approach of ascribing those who do not believe that god exists as being for ever in an adolescent stage.

Firstly you've provided no evidence to back up your claim that people tend to become atheist at age 12/13. I'd accept that kids often rebel against their upbringing at that age, but of course not all kids are brought up in religious households - however my experience suggests that actually becoming atheist (or recognising that you are atheist) tends to be rather later - late teens. Again I cannot back this up with evidence, but based on my experience and those I know.

But there is a broader point - surely the point at which one becomes mature is when an individual takes stick of upbringing, later experience and evidence to determine what they believe and do not believe as an adult. Now for some things this can vary considerable as we progress from young adult to middle age etc, but for religion the situation in early adulthood is very sticky - religious young adults become religious middle aged people and religious old people. Similarly, non religious young adults are very unlikely to develop religiosity as they get older.

But there is one really important factor - religiosity as an adult is almost always linked to a religious upbringing. It is exceptionally rare for person brought up in a non religious manner to become religious as an adult. The flip-side isn't the case - there are plenty (in the UK about 50%) of people who were brought up in a religious manner who reject that religion as an adult. Now none of that has anything to do with the adolescent rebel phase, but about the settled adult vs upbringing position.

What this leads me to conclude is that the claims of religion are effectively unbelievable if you only come to them as an adult and are only believable to those that have that social upbringing as a child. So religiosity in an adult seems to me to be a kind of hangover from the childhood stage rather, while being non religious may be that (if the child was brought up non religious) but for those huge number of non religious adults who were brought up in a religious manner it seems to be that the (non) claims of atheism seem more plausible and believable if you only come to them as an adult than the claims of religion.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 01:36:02 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Sriram

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2023, 02:44:30 PM »

Skepticism need not develop precisely at 12 or 13 years. It is an individual thing. I have broadly mentioned adolescence starting at 12/13 years. 

My point is that there is natural tendency towards skepticism (dad knows nothing phase) starting in adolescence. This is when in most cases the seed of doubt is sown. Some people on this board in fact have said (long ago) that they first developed atheistic ideas around 12 years.

The problem is that many people are unable to shake off the childhood tendencies towards hero worship even much later in life. Similarly, many people are unable to shake off skepticism developed during adolescence even later in life...which becomes a habit and a mindset.

Its not about rationality and evidence. It is about a mindset....a form of mental programming that makes people perceive things in a particular way.

ekim

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2023, 03:23:04 PM »
The problem comes when those with such experiences try to impose their views as some sort of truth  for everyone.
Unfortunately that applies in many areas of life.  It is part of the conditioning process to wield power, gain influence or make money.  As the Borg say 'Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated'.

Outrider

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2023, 03:40:15 PM »
Skepticism need not develop precisely at 12 or 13 years. It is an individual thing. I have broadly mentioned adolescence starting at 12/13 years. 

My point is that there is natural tendency towards skepticism (dad knows nothing phase) starting in adolescence. This is when in most cases the seed of doubt is sown. Some people on this board in fact have said (long ago) that they first developed atheistic ideas around 12 years.

The problem is that many people are unable to shake off the childhood tendencies towards hero worship even much later in life. Similarly, many people are unable to shake off skepticism developed during adolescence even later in life...which becomes a habit and a mindset.

Its not about rationality and evidence. It is about a mindset....a form of mental programming that makes people perceive things in a particular way.

You say it's 'not about rationality and evidence, it's about mindset' whilst your entire argument here is that older ideas must be right because they've been around longer. An argument doesn't stand or fall on how long it's been right or wrong, but on whether it was right or wrong in the first place. This depiction of people who don't just kowtow to your bullshit excuses for accepting woo as 'adolescents' in your world of pseudo-scientific adults is even lower than your usual 'efforts'.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2023, 03:52:26 PM »

When did I say that older ideas must be right. You are making that up.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2023, 04:06:32 PM »
Sriram,

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Its not about rationality and evidence.

Skepticism is all about rationality and evidence. That's the point of it, and that's why it's key if we're not to be taken in by unmitigated woo as, somewhat dispiritingly, you have been. 
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Outrider

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2023, 04:08:17 PM »
When did I say that older ideas must be right. You are making that up.
#

Yep, that's definitely the focal point of my post...  ::)

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2023, 05:22:59 PM »
My point is that there is natural tendency towards skepticism (dad knows nothing phase) starting in adolescence.
But you seem to see this only in one direction. Surely if Dad is non religious or atheist then you should also argue that a child who rebels as an adolescent by toying with religion is being just as skeptical. Why do you only consider this to be skepticism when it is an adolescent rebelling against a religious upbringing but not the other way around.

This is when in most cases the seed of doubt is sown. Some people on this board in fact have said (long ago) that they first developed atheistic ideas around 12 years.
Well others will need to answer for themselves - but that certainly isn't my experience. In my case I came to recognise that I was an atheist at the age of 23. And I use that terminology 'came to recognise' as it was pretty clear to me that I never believed - I was just pretending when I thought perhaps I did. And having been brought up in a broadly non religious manner my 'rebellious' phase was a rather half hearted toying with christianity, largely because I fell in with groups when I was in the 6th form and at university who were christians and to an extent went along with this, largely from a social point of view (youth club type activities mainly). But as much as I might have 'tried' to believe at that time in retrospect it was crystal clear to me that I never really did.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2023, 05:30:14 PM »
The problem is that many people are unable to shake off the childhood tendencies towards hero worship even much later in life.
But isn't that exactly the issue with religion - it is effectively only a pursuit of those brought up with that 'hero worship' as a child. Don't inculcate that 'hero worship' as a child (i.e. don't bring them up in a religious manner) and the likelihood that they will develop that 'hero worship' (i.e. become religious) as an adult is vanishingly small.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2023, 05:43:03 PM »
Similarly, many people are unable to shake off skepticism developed during adolescence even later in life...which becomes a habit and a mindset.
Two points - firstly why is having a skeptical mindset as an adult a problem. I don't think it is at all - as adults we have obligations and responsibilities and it seems reasonable to me that we should base our decisions on evidence and a rational approach rather than on blind belief. And also that we should be prepared to admit that we don't know when that is the case. That's seems to be exactly the kind of mature mindset you'd want and expect in an adult.

Secondly - again you aren't being consistent. So an atheist may reject the notion that the christian god exists - or that Jesus was resurrected. But then so will many people who are religious but not christian. If the atheist has a skeptical mindset (that you seem to feel is somehow unhealthy) for rejecting these religious claims, then so do Sikhs, Hindus, Jews etc etc who also reject the very same religious claims.

So your argument seems to be that if there are X purported gods (and X its a pretty big number)

Reject X gods = unhealthy skepticism
Reject X-1 gods = fine and dandy

Sriram

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2023, 06:27:19 AM »
Two points - firstly why is having a skeptical mindset as an adult a problem. I don't think it is at all - as adults we have obligations and responsibilities and it seems reasonable to me that we should base our decisions on evidence and a rational approach rather than on blind belief. And also that we should be prepared to admit that we don't know when that is the case. That's seems to be exactly the kind of mature mindset you'd want and expect in an adult.

Secondly - again you aren't being consistent. So an atheist may reject the notion that the christian god exists - or that Jesus was resurrected. But then so will many people who are religious but not christian. If the atheist has a skeptical mindset (that you seem to feel is somehow unhealthy) for rejecting these religious claims, then so do Sikhs, Hindus, Jews etc etc who also reject the very same religious claims.

So your argument seems to be that if there are X purported gods (and X its a pretty big number)

Reject X gods = unhealthy skepticism
Reject X-1 gods = fine and dandy


Goodness! You are getting yourself into a tizzy.  I am not saying any such thing. In fact, I am not even specifically talking about religions vs non religion only. 

I am talking about an attitude. A mindset.....which decides the way we perceive things. 

Some people remain blind believers based on authority....which is a childhood trait that doesn't go away. Some people become skeptics which they develop during adolescence, and remain skeptics even though there could be good reason to accept something as a possibility.  Mature people on the other hand take a more 'i can't say' attitude rather than a blind belief or a firm disbelief.

Maeght

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2023, 07:04:25 AM »

Goodness! You are getting yourself into a tizzy.  I am not saying any such thing. In fact, I am not even specifically talking about religions vs non religion only. 

I am talking about an attitude. A mindset.....which decides the way we perceive things. 

Some people remain blind believers based on authority....which is a childhood trait that doesn't go away. Some people become skeptics which they develop during adolescence, and remain skeptics even though there could be good reason to accept something as a possibility.  Mature people on the other hand take a more 'i can't say' attitude rather than a blind belief or a firm disbelief.

Sceptics say 'I can't say' if there isn't sufficient evidence to convince them though don't they?

Stranger

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2023, 07:09:40 AM »
Some people remain blind believers based on authority....which is a childhood trait that doesn't go away. Some people become skeptics which they develop during adolescence, and remain skeptics even though there could be good reason to accept something as a possibility.  Mature people on the other hand take a more 'i can't say' attitude rather than a blind belief or a firm disbelief.

  So you don't even understand what scepticism and critical thinking are. It's not about not accepting things a possibilities, it's about not accepting them as being probably true without good reasoning.

Except where you make obvious mistakes in science and terminology, nobody here is telling you that your ideas must be wrong, just that we have no good reason to accept them. They frequently take a "can't say" approach when there is not enough evidence.

The real irony is that you seem to be in the " blind believers based on authority" group. You seem utterly convinced of things for which you have no evidence simply because of your own blind belief.
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Sriram

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2023, 07:26:02 AM »


You guys are out on your hunt quite early today...aren't you?!  :D

Stranger

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2023, 07:59:23 AM »
You guys are out on your hunt quite early today...aren't you?!  :D

And Sriram avoids the uncomfortable points again.     ::)

That you accuse others of being immature is really rather funny.
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Sriram

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2023, 08:19:46 AM »


Nothing uncomfortable....  If it were so, I wouldn't even be on these boards!

Its just that habitual skepticism combined with the Two boxes Syndrome can be dysfunctional....while giving the illusion that it is a great mindset to have....

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2023, 08:21:10 AM »
  So you don't even understand what scepticism and critical thinking are. It's not about not accepting things a possibilities, it's about not accepting them as being probably true without good reasoning.
Absolutely - skepticism isn't about refusing to accept that something isn't possible, it is about not accepting that something is true without reasonable evidence.

Now I might be wrong but I think pretty well (perhaps all) the atheists on this MB also describe themselves as agnostic on knowledge. So I (and I suspect others here) am atheist as I do not believe that god exists but agnostic because I do not know for certain that god does not exist. Hence I (and I suspect others here) accept the possibility that god could exist but due to the lack of any credible evidence I do not believe that to be the case.

So if skepticism is as Sriram describes (it isn't by the way), then none of the atheist here are skeptics as we accept that god could exist, albeit we do not believe god exists.

And again using Sriram's (wrong) definition of skepticism as someone who refused to accept the possibility of something, then it isn't the atheists here that are habitual skeptics and have a skeptical mindset. Nope it is the likes of AB and Vlad. While Sriram focusses on the possibility that god exists, there is an equally valid alternative - that god does not exist. And while I and others who are atheist seem to accept the possibility that god exists, it seems to me that Vlad and AB (as examples) seem to completely reject the possibility that god does not exist.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2023, 08:23:39 AM »
Its just that habitual skepticism combined with the Two boxes Syndrome can be dysfunctional....while giving the illusion that it is a great mindset to have....
Then why aren't you aiming your criticism at AM and Vlad - who seemingly refuse to accept the possibility that god might not exist, which by your definition would make them habitually skeptical.

Rather you take aim at atheists who are also agnostic, in so far as we accept the possibility that god could exists albeit we do not believe that to be the case due to the lack of any credible evidence.

Stranger

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2023, 08:31:44 AM »
Nothing uncomfortable....  If it were so, I wouldn't even be on these boards!

Yet you run away from addressing so many points. Why would that be?

Its just that habitual skepticism combined with the Two boxes Syndrome can be dysfunctional....while giving the illusion that it is a great mindset to have....

The problem is that you seem to think that your rather childish analogies serve as arguments. In fact they are just ad hominem fallacies. The fact of the matter is, that if scientists did not take a sceptical approach, then you wouldn't have an internet forum to post on.

It is also quite obvious that it is you who are taking the attitude that you are ascribing to others. It is you who refuse to accept that you might be wrong about (for example) consciousness, evolution, and NDEs. It is you who blindly believe things for no reason except (what you accept as) authority.
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jeremyp

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Re: Three stages
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2023, 10:04:45 AM »

Its not about rationality and evidence. It is about a mindset....a form of mental programming that makes people perceive things in a particular way.

Don't worry, with education, you should be able to break it and then you will be freed from the shackles of your superstition to explore the wonders of the real Universe.
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