Hamas attacks Israel.

[SteveH]

Nothing new there, you might say, but this attack seems bigger than usual. Who to support? Frankly, neither. I deplore both Israel for its oppression of the Palestinians, and Hamas for targeting civilians.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2023/oct/07/hamas-launches-surprise-air-and-land-attack-on-israel-in-pictures

[Nearly Sane]

I think Netanyahu saying it's war makes it different. And given it's indicative of a failure of Israeli intelligence, there will be long term ramifications? Anyone got a suitable line from Revelation or Nostradamus?

[ad_orientem]

I think Netanyahu saying it's war makes it different. And given it's indicative of a failure of Israeli intelligence, there will be long term ramifications? Anyone got a suitable line from Revelation or Nostradamus?

Highly likely that Iran has helped Hamas with attack.

[Nearly Sane]

Be interested to see what reaction this gets in the US republican race for President.

[Aruntraveller]

The reactions of Western leaders are typically supine towards Israel. Biden claiming that international law has been broken by Hamas and therefore Israel is deserving of US support.

Remind me Mr President how often has Israel disobeyed/ignored International law in relation to the Palestinians?

One example: https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722

If only they could join the dots.

For a serious view, a former consul in Jerusalem was on BBC Breakfast this morning just after 7.30. His name was Sir Richard Dalton. He talked more sense than anyone else I've seen commenting on this.

[jeremyp]

The reactions of Western leaders are typically supine towards Israel. Biden claiming that international law has been broken by Hamas and therefore Israel is deserving of US support.

a terrorist organisation launched an attack on a state and killed and kidnapped hundreds of civilians. Whatever the Israeli government might have done, this is a horrific attack  started by an organisation that wants to eradicate the Jews.

[Aruntraveller]

a terrorist organisation launched an attack on a state and killed and kidnapped hundreds of civilians. Whatever the Israeli government might have done, this is a horrific attack  started by an organisation that wants to eradicate the Jews.

I don't disagree but as someone famous once said:

"Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

You can't put a pressure cooker on and walk away and not expect it to explode at some point. Hamas garners support from ordinary Palestinians precisely because of the actions of the Israeli state over decades. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

a terrorist organisation launched an attack on a state and killed and kidnapped hundreds of civilians. Whatever the Israeli government might have done, this is a horrific attack  started by an organisation that wants to eradicate the Jews.

Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, apparently had an interesting perspective on this:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/

The periodic actions of some of the Palestinian groups won't be a surprise to the Israeli government then.

ETA: If you look at the rest of the quotes attributed to Ben Gurion, and he was not alone in this viewpoint, it is not surprising that the Palestinians are aware that the final goal of the Israeli hard-right and their supporters is Israeli expansion ie to take more Arab land for the state of Israel.

If we compare this to what Russia is attempting to do in the Ukraine, we can see many people in Europe support the right of the Ukrainians to defend themselves and they supply Ukraine with weapons and training. Not exactly surprising is it that different countries near the war zone will do what is in their own best interests, including Iran. Let's not be hypocritical and pretend there is some reasoned argument other than self-interest as to why someone woukd support Ukraine against Russia but not the Palestinians against Israel.

[Aruntraveller]

If we compare this to what Russia is attempting to do in the Ukraine, we can see many people in Europe support the right of the Ukrainians to defend themselves and they supply Ukraine with weapons and training. Not exactly surprising is it that different countries near the war zone will do what is in their own best interests, including Iran. Let's not be hypocritical and pretend there is some reasoned argument other than self-interest as to why someone woukd support Ukraine against Russia but not the Palestinians against Israel.

This. Very much this.

[Dicky Underpants]

"will do what is in their own best interests"
Since Israeli commentators are now comparing the attack to 9:11 and Pearl Harbour that would appear to be inviting the Israelis to bomb the shit out of the Palestinians.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

"will do what is in their own best interests"
Since Israeli commentators are now comparing the attack to 9:11 and Pearl Harbour that would appear to be inviting the Israelis to bomb the shit out of the Palestinians.

Wouldn't surprise me. But Russia bombing the shit out of Ukraine doesn't seem to be persuading the Ukranians to give up their land to Russia. Maybe people are attached to their land and if supplied with weapons they will fight back...who knew  .

Some Zionists seem to have thought that the Arabs would be like the indigenous populations decimated by Western countries in USA, Australia etc - if they killed enough of them, they would just give up and walk away. Maybe if those indigenous people had been supplied with enough weapons they too would have fought back and killed the people invading and dispossessing them of their land.

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948: Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes: “The old will die and the young will forget.”

“Every school child knows that there is no such thing in history as a final arrangement — not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements.”
— Ben Gurion, War Diaries, 12/03/1947 following Israel’s “acceptance” of the U.N. Partition of 11/29/1947 (Simha Flapan, “Birth of Israel,” p.13)

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population? ‘Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘ Drive them out! ‘ “
Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

Ben-Gurion wrote in his diary on 12 July 1937: “the compulsory transfer of the Arabs from the valleys of the projected Jewish State…. We have to stick to this conclusion the same way we grabbed the Balfour Declaration, more than that, the same way we grabbed at Zionism itself.”
(Ben-Gurion, Zichronot [Memoirs], Vol. 4, p. 299)

I don't see much evidence that the hard Right in Israel have disavowed themselves of these views.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

"will do what is in their own best interests"
Since Israeli commentators are now comparing the attack to 9:11 and Pearl Harbour that would appear to be inviting the Israelis to bomb the shit out of the Palestinians.

Bin Laden said he got the idea of hitting the US Twin Towers after Israel invaded Lebanon and destroyed tower blocks in Beirut.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/30/alqaida.september11

No doubt Israel's response to the current situation (funded by the US) will inspire more 9/11s and 7/7s. Israel’s defence minister Yoav Gallant declared there would be a “complete siege” of the territory with “no electricity, food or fuel” allowed to pass.

Presumably there will be a humanitarian crisis in Gaza , which will fuel more extremism.  Iran will help Hamas. The US and UK will help Israel.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/09/rishi-sunak-uk-poised-israel-military-help

And so it goes. After Israel has finished bombing the shit out of the Palestinians, Qatar and the EU etc will probably fund the rebuilding of Gaza like they did after Israel bombed Gaza in 2014 when 'Water and sanitation facilities, schools, hospitals, and primary healthcare centres were also targeted by Israeli war planes and artillery. About 8,500 people have been rendered homeless as their residences were “destroyed or so severely damaged as to be uninhabitable”, the UN says.' 

And again Gaza was rebuilt in 2021 after: 'Israeli airstrikes in the Palestinian territory of Gaza have damaged six hospitals, nine primary health care centres, and a desalination plant that supplies clean water to 250 000 people, the United Nations has reported.

Gaza’s main covid-19 laboratory and the Palestinian Ministry of Health offices have also been hit,2 and at least two prominent doctors, the internal medicine consultant Ayman Abu Alouf, who was leading the covid-19 team at Al Shifa hospital, and the health ministry neurologist Moeen Al-Aloul, have been killed.

The latest escalation in violence was the result of unrest in the West Bank, as pro-settler organisations have been attempting to force Palestinian families from their homes in the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood of East Jerusalem, in a move that the United Nations warned could amount to “war crimes.”https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1300'

[SteveH]

I see Biden and Sunak have promised military aid to Israel. I'm inclined to think that we should mind our own business and stay out of it. There's no comparison with Russia/Ukraine, where Ukraine is the innocent (well, as innocent as any country ever is) victim; The Palestinians have a legitimate, 75-years-old grievance against Israel, although this attack on civilians is outrageous.

[jeremyp]

Wouldn't surprise me. But Russia bombing the shit out of Ukraine doesn't seem to be persuading the Ukranians to give up their land to Russia. Maybe people are attached to their land and if supplied with weapons they will fight back...who knew  .

Some Zionists seem to have thought that the Arabs would be like the indigenous populations decimated by Western countries in USA, Australia etc - if they killed enough of them, they would just give up and walk away. Maybe if those indigenous people had been supplied with enough weapons they too would have fought back and killed the people invading and dispossessing them of their land.

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948: Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes: “The old will die and the young will forget.”

“Every school child knows that there is no such thing in history as a final arrangement — not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements.”
— Ben Gurion, War Diaries, 12/03/1947 following Israel’s “acceptance” of the U.N. Partition of 11/29/1947 (Simha Flapan, “Birth of Israel,” p.13)

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population? ‘Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘ Drive them out! ‘ “
Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

Ben-Gurion wrote in his diary on 12 July 1937: “the compulsory transfer of the Arabs from the valleys of the projected Jewish State…. We have to stick to this conclusion the same way we grabbed the Balfour Declaration, more than that, the same way we grabbed at Zionism itself.”
(Ben-Gurion, Zichronot [Memoirs], Vol. 4, p. 299)

I don't see much evidence that the hard Right in Israel have disavowed themselves of these views.

Hammas attacked Israel. Hammas killed and kidnapped civilians.

Just remember that.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Hammas attacked Israel. Hammas killed and kidnapped civilians.

Just remember that.

Just to flip what you initially said about the Israeli government in reply #5, whatever Hamas might have done, you do know that Ben Gurion and many of his successors in Israel attacked and drove Palestinian women and children off their land and that IDF forces have been shooting protesting Palestinian children for years right? You should remember that.

And as mentioned it was Ben Gurion's view that "Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”

When the Germans were bombing the shit out of British people, the response was to bomb the shit out of German people. In that situation both sides were separated by land and water so they had to travel to engage in warfare. If both sides are right next to each other and one side is far more heavily armed than the other, in many of these type of conflicts all over the world the less heavily armed side has tended to adopt guerrilla tactics to compensate for its lack of firepower e.g. lethal raids, kidnapping etc including targeting civilians, especially if they feel their own civilians have been targeted.

When the Israeli government attacks Gaza or blockades Gaza, it is targeting civilians, hoping that if it causes enough death and misery to Palestinian civilians they will stop fighting Israeli expansion and give up.

There is a narrative that Palestinians should love their children enough to stop fighting. Presumably that is what regimes with superior fire power count on in order to successfully conquer and subdue people - including Britain and other empire-building nations. But often in these circumstances people under attack come up with beliefs and slogans to help them resist against superior firepower - presumably that is why beliefs are so important to humans, and they don't just make decisions based on facts and evidence. Many Palestinian civilians believe that if they die under superior Israeli firepower, they die as martyrs and will be rewarded. That is why they are prepared to endure the deaths of their loved ones rather than giving up the land stolen from them by Israel.

That is why a negotiated peace by both sides is better than violent conflict.   

"Why does the guerrilla fighter fight? We must come to the inevitable conclusion that the guerrilla fighter is a social reformer, that he takes up arms responding to the angry protest of the people against their oppressors, and that he fights in order to change the social system that keeps all his unarmed brothers in ignominy and misery."

[jeremyp]

Just to flip what you initially said about the Israeli government in reply #5, whatever Hamas might have done, you do know that Ben Gurion and many of his successors in Israel attacked and drove Palestinian women and children off their land and that IDF forces have been shooting protesting Palestinian children for years right? You should remember that.

And as mentioned it was Ben Gurion's view that "Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”

When the Germans were bombing the shit out of British people, the response was to bomb the shit out of German people. In that situation both sides were separated by land and water so they had to travel to engage in warfare. If both sides are right next to each other and one side is far more heavily armed than the other, in many of these type of conflicts all over the world the less heavily armed side has tended to adopt guerrilla tactics to compensate for its lack of firepower e.g. lethal raids, kidnapping etc including targeting civilians, especially if they feel their own civilians have been targeted.

When the Israeli government attacks Gaza or blockades Gaza, it is targeting civilians, hoping that if it causes enough death and misery to Palestinian civilians they will stop fighting Israeli expansion and give up.

There is a narrative that Palestinians should love their children enough to stop fighting. Presumably that is what regimes with superior fire power count on in order to successfully conquer and subdue people - including Britain and other empire-building nations. But often in these circumstances people under attack come up with beliefs and slogans to help them resist against superior firepower - presumably that is why beliefs are so important to humans, and they don't just make decisions based on facts and evidence. Many Palestinian civilians believe that if they die under superior Israeli firepower, they die as martyrs and will be rewarded. That is why they are prepared to endure the deaths of their loved ones rather than giving up the land stolen from them by Israel.

That is why a negotiated peace by both sides is better than violent conflict.   

"Why does the guerrilla fighter fight? We must come to the inevitable conclusion that the guerrilla fighter is a social reformer, that he takes up arms responding to the angry protest of the people against their oppressors, and that he fights in order to change the social system that keeps all his unarmed brothers in ignominy and misery."

The problem with a negotiated peace is that Hamas wants to see the Jews in the Levant exterminated. There is no compromise that they would accept.

[SteveH]

Hamas wants to see the Jews in the Levant exterminated.

You've got checkable evidence for that assertion, I take it.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The problem with a negotiated peace is that Hamas wants to see the Jews in the Levant exterminated. There is no compromise that they would accept.

Many people say the same about the right-wing Israeli government - ie the problem with a negotiated peace is that for hardliner Zionists the peace is temporary and a way of shoring up strength to attack and drive the Palestinians further out of the land the Palestinians currently have, so that the Israelis can further expand their settlements. Many people say there is no compromise that the hardliner Zionists would accept.

One of the reasons for the opposition to the formation of a state of Israel was the belief that once they had a nation state, the Israelis would not stop expanding from their current territory to try to take over more Arab land. Ben Gurion's words seem to back that up.

Partition: “after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine “
— Ben Gurion, p.22 “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan.

“The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan. One does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today — but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concerns of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.” P. 53, “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan

So now what? Are you suggesting that bellicose statements on both sides means this cycle of violence over land is better than trying to negotiate for peace.

[jeremyp]

You've got checkable evidence for that assertion, I take it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

[jeremyp]

Many people say the same about the right-wing Israeli government

But we know that that is not true.

There are two million Palestinians living within the borders of Israel already. They aren't being genocided. They aren't being dforcibly relocated outside of Israel.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

Your link says:

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders..... Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage.[38][39]

So presumably if there was a one state solution with Jews and Arabs living together and democratically elected leaders rather than a dictatorship, there would be no occupation and therefore Hamas would not have a problem with Jews being in the Levant.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

But we know that that is not true.

There are two million Palestinians living within the borders of Israel already. They aren't being genocided. They aren't being dforcibly relocated outside of Israel.

Firstly, why are you only quoting the first part of what I wrote without including the rest of it? 

What I wrote was "Many people say the same about the right-wing Israeli government - ie the problem with a negotiated peace is that for hardliner Zionists the peace is temporary and a way of shoring up strength to attack and drive the Palestinians further out of the land the Palestinians currently have, so that the Israelis can further expand their settlements. Many people say there is no compromise that the hardliner Zionists would accept.

As for the Palestinians in Israel, many people have drawn comparisons between the situation of Palestinians in Israel and black people in South Africa during apartheid. Maybe you should look into the current situation and have a re-think of your analysis of the situation in the Middle East.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/19/israel-apartheid-state-south-africa-netanyahu

We are not suggesting that the Ukrainians should be ok with being incorporated into Russia so long as Putin isn't committing genocide against them are we? Are you suggesting that so long as the Palestinians are not facing genocide, they have no legitimate grievance against Israel that allows armed struggle?

[jeremyp]

Your link says:

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders..... Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage.[38][39]

So presumably if there was a one state solution with Jews and Arabs living together and democratically elected leaders rather than a dictatorship, there would be no occupation and therefore Hamas would not have a problem with Jews being in the Levant.

How are Jews treated in other Islamic states? Do you think they would be treated better or worse than the Muslims in Israel?

How can you be so naive about the nature of an Islamic state?

[Nearly Sane]

People are getting killed in Israel. In Gaza, they just appear to be dying with no cause.

[Outrider]

Hammas attacked Israel. Hammas killed and kidnapped civilians.

Just remember that.

Russia Israel is illegally occupying Ukrainian Palestinian territory, just remember that.

The 'rules of war' are a convenient nonsense drawn up by invested powers to demonise the strategic and tactical options of those without similar resources. Bombing a city from three-hundred miles away with a smart warhead is not morally or ethically superior to running in with a bomb-vest, just technologically.

O.