Hamas attacks Israel.

[Dicky Underpants]

I see Biden and Sunak have promised military aid to Israel. I'm inclined to think that we should mind our own business and stay out of it. There's no comparison with Russia/Ukraine, where Ukraine is the innocent (well, as innocent as any country ever is) victim; The Palestinians have a legitimate, 75-years-old grievance against Israel, although this attack on civilians is outrageous.

And I dare say many Palestinians wish Hamas would vanish up their own arses (though that didn't stop a lot of them indulging in disgusting, jubilant Schadenfreude after Hamas' attack). Can we really only limit the problem to 75 years? The religious Jews after all believed in the return of their people to the 'Holy Land' was predicted in their scriptures. And it took centuries of anti-semitic persecution for the first glimmers of that to happen, with the origins of modern Zionism in the 19th century.

Modern Israel has its origins in the Zionism movement, established in the late 19th century by Jews in the Russian Empire who called for the establishment of a territorial Jewish state after enduring persecution. In 1896, Jewish-Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl published an influential political pamphlet called The Jewish State, which argued that the establishment of a Jewish state was the only way of protecting Jews from anti-Semitism.

I suppose that might have been just a pipe dream and resulted in a few skirmishes caused by the Jews who began to migrate there. But then came the Russian Revolution, and worst of all, the mass migration caused by Herr Hitler and his grisly gang. And then the attempts - meddling - of Britain and America to try and sort things out.

I don't suppose the extreme right wing policies of Netanyahu have done much to placate the situation over recent years. The best one can say about him is that he's been pretty consistent, which is more than one can say from the edicts of Hamas, whose weasel words and tergiversations don't convince me one iota that they are not violently anti-Jew, whether religious or not, and violently anti-Israel.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

How are Jews treated in other Islamic states? Do you think they would be treated better or worse than the Muslims in Israel?

How can you be so naive about the nature of an Islamic state?

Is this your way of justifying a discriminatory Jewish apartheid state? Your justification is that it's just as bad as a discriminatory Muslim state?

It is possible to say both Israel and Hamas are wrong for targeting civilians.

I don't support a Jewish state or a Muslim state. See - pretty easy to be against Zionism and Islamism.

So it seems that Hamas are not out to exterminate the Jews. They are just against the colonial Israeli occupation of Arab land and the colonial mindset that created the state of Israel.

What exactly is wrong with Hamas or anyone stating they are against Israeli occupation of Arab land?

[Dicky Underpants]

How are Jews treated in other Islamic states? Do you think they would be treated better or worse than the Muslims in Israel?

How can you be so naive about the nature of an Islamic state?

It's perfectly clear that modern Islamic states and those fanatics whose whole purpose is devoted to establishing them have a different mentality from the relatively enlightened civilisations centred on Baghdad and Cordoba hundreds of years ago. No sense of any subtlety in their interpretations of scripture, no awareness of the full breadth of Islamic culture in the distant past, just the feverish promptings of their anti-semitic (anti-Jewish, I mean) blood-lust, coupled with a massive dose of misogyny and homophobia. Any old Hadith, no matter how suspect, will do to promote their cause, even if it contradicts the Koran directly, and a very selective use of texts from the latter in any case. The more killing involved the better - and Heaven to follow if they're martyred in battle.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And I dare say many Palestinians wish Hamas would vanish up their own arses (though that didn't stop a lot of them indulging in disgusting, jubilant Schadenfreude after Hamas' attack).

Maybe that's what happens to people who are dehumanised and oppressed and living in poverty for years

How many is a lot? I would be interested in your evidence for that.

How did "lots" of Jewish people react when Palestinians were being killed?

Can we really only limit the problem to 75 years? The religious Jews after all believed in the return of their people to the 'Holy Land' was predicted in their scriptures. And it took centuries of anti-semitic persecution for the first glimmers of that to happen, with the origins of modern Zionism in the 19th century.

I suppose that might have been just a pipe dream and resulted in a few skirmishes caused by the Jews who began to migrate there. But then came the Russian Revolution, and worst of all, the mass migration caused by Herr Hitler and his grisly gang. And then the attempts - meddling - of Britain and America to try and sort things out.

It wasn't just Hitler. Apparently they were upset by the discrimination and persecution they suffered every day in the 20th century West from antisemitic Europeans, Brits and Americans who believed in the idea that they were part of a superior white race. 

I don't suppose the extreme right wing policies of Netanyahu have done much to placate the situation over recent years. The best one can say about him is that he's been pretty consistent, which is more than one can say from the edicts of Hamas, whose weasel words and tergiversations don't convince me one iota that they are not violently anti-Jew, whether religious or not, and violently anti-Israel.

Do you have any evidence for your belief? JP was the one who linked to the Hamas Charter as evidence of their beliefs.

[Nearly Sane]

Simplistic gesture followed by simplistic, if dangerous, gesture
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-67075181

[jeremyp]

Russia Israel is illegally occupying Ukrainian Palestinian territory, just remember that.

The 'rules of war' are a convenient nonsense drawn up by invested powers to demonise the strategic and tactical options of those without similar resources. Bombing a city from three-hundred miles away with a smart warhead is not morally or ethically superior to running in with a bomb-vest, just technologically.

O.

Hamas are not the good guys.

[SteveH]

Hamas are not the good guys.

I don't think there are any good guys in this war.

[Outrider]

Hamas are not the good guys.

And neither are the Israeli state - it's not an exact parallel, but the nuance is distinctly absent in the media coverage and Western governmental responses.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

And neither are the Israeli state - it's not an exact parallel, but the nuance is distinctly absent in the media coverage and Western governmental responses.

O.

It's not a parallel, and suggesting it is seems a fairly obvious distraction from the murders by Hamas. You are indulfing in whataboutery, as are many happy to ignore the actions of the Israeli govt because of 'whatabout Hamas'.

The following is a post from a friend of over 40 years which says it better than I would. On a unrelated topic yesterday I was looking at editions of student newspaper  from when we first met and were camaigning for Palestine. The articles, editorials, and letters were filled with comments on Palestine and Israel. It felt as though nothing had changed.


""PALESTINE SOLIDARITY" CAMPAIGNERS!
HOW IS, NOT HOW YOU WOULD LKE IT TO BE

 I have been campaigning against Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza for decades and will continue to.

But what I  will not sign up to is a one- eyed outlook that totally ignores the context to what is ha happening now .. what I predicted would happen when I first heard of Hamas'nilateral breaking of the ceasefire and all our attack on Israel on Saturday.. And, unlike many Palestinian solidarity activists I cannot ignore, dissemble away, the massacres of hundreds of Israeli civilians on Saturday by Hamas.

Palestinians in Gaza "decided" nothing. The decision to invade Israel and immediately start slaughtering its border population, was taken by four people in the Hamas leadership, two of whom live in safety in Qatar. The inability of the "Hand Off Palestine" lobby to grasp this is depressing .Hamas is not Palestine. It is a fundamentalist ,bloodthirsty ,eliminatory Islamic sect which has seized control of Gaza by military means - , like Israel has seized control of the area in general, Only in an even more brutal way.. There is such a thing as a political opposition in Israel , including Arab Palestinian political parties Which support the creation of a Palestinian state.

And Israel even at its absolute worst ( and that is bad)  at least tries to follow basic modes of human behaviour, if not always international law.  It does not go into villages and rock concerts and start slaughtering people.

 Not since Deir Yassin in 1948.anyeay. When extremist Zionist  paramilitaries slaughtered 121 Palestinian villagers . You may have heard of it ?  Every Palestinian has - it is the worst single atrocity the Palestinians have suffered in theit long history of suffering. But to put what Hamas did in context,  Hamss slaughtered in excess of 700 equally innocent Israeli villagers and music concert goers on Saturday. Try and take that in. Try and open your mind and dump your cliched hopelessly inadequate leftist script.

The near total silence on this matter by Palestines Solidarity groups is depressing. But were at not for these sadistic acts on a mass scale by Hamas Guerillas, what is happening now in Gaza would not be happening.. Of course the situation was very bad - but there is very bad and there is appauling ,as we are now seeing.  There is having electricity  and water and not having electricity and water   There is being bombed by wave after wave of f121, and not being bombed repeatedly by Israeli aircraft . And this simply would eould not be happening if the full scale invasion of Gaza by Israel that we are witnessing and is about to get a lot worse.had Hamas's dictatorial leadership not pulled the trigger. 

And those who talk about Palestine's right to defend itself are basically talking bullshit. There is defending yourself, and there is going into attack and slaughtering sleeping families en masse. Equally Israel - there is defending yourselves and indiscriminately bombing as a civilian population in an concentrated urban area.   And cutting off water and electricity to an entire population of ove  2 million people is not defending yourself

But any discussion about the suffering of the Palestinian people which does not put Hamas at the centre of The blame for much if it is hopelessly incomplete.  Your long history lessons do not address what happened on Saturday.

 The situation on the West Bank is dire, is not a all good. But compared to what is happening in Gaza ? That the West Bank it is getting near zero attention , not just by the mainstream media but by Palestine Solidarity organisations makes my point  Israel is still the same occupying authority. The difference is Gaza is run by Hamas and the West Bank by Fatah And Fatah is a far from good leadership. It is just not genocidal. Tries its best to keep to international law and basic modes of humanity

Graspe that and you might just begin to start understanding The current situation.. Anyone Who fails to, refuses t , is not just hopelessly uninformed, but is failing the Palestinian people   Your solidarity is one-eyed, and with it wholly ineffective"

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Hamas are not the good guys.

Who do you see as the good guys here? I don't see any.

Hamas indiscriminately murdered civilians including women and children. The Israeli government are currently indiscriminately murdering civilians including women and children.

What is your criteria for differentiating between the indiscriminate murder of 2 different groups of civilians?

Is it morally better to murder civilians if the murder weapon used is long range bombardment rather than short range gunfire?

Is it morally better to deny people their rights, forcibly evict them from their land under threat of death, keep them in poverty and murder them in drips and drabs over many years rather than murder them all at once in one go?

Is denying people their rights and forcibly removing them from their own land under the threat of death what the good guys do?

If the relatives of the murdered Palestinians, in their pain and rage start setting off bombs in Israel or in the USA or UK, I wonder if the international leaders will be as silent about the resulting terrorism and murders of their citizens as they are about the current Israeli terrorism and murders of Palestinian civilians.

[jeremyp]

Who do you see as the good guys here? I don't see any.

Hamas indiscriminately murdered civilians including women and children.

That's true. Hamas goes out specifically to murder civilians. Sometimes they take babies and cut their heads off.

The Israeli government are currently indiscriminately murdering civilians including women and children.

This is not true. Israel is trying to put a stop to Hamas. Civilians are killed by Israel because Hamas has put them between Israel's armed forces and itself. Israel perceives itself to be in an existential struggle with Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist organisations. They don't kill civilians to invoke terror, they do it because they have no other means of destroying Hamas.

Yes it's horrific and morally questionable, but Hamas wants Israel destroyed. How do you think Israel should be dealing with them?

If the relatives of the murdered Palestinians, in their pain and rage start setting off bombs in Israel

Hamas is already doing that. They've been doing it for years. Hamas is a blood soaked terrorist organisation driven by a corrupt and evil ideology. If you have got a better way to stop them that doesn't involve the deaths of thousands of people, I beg you to tell us all what it is.

[Nearly Sane]

That's true. Hamas goes out specifically to murder civilians. Sometimes they take babies and cut their heads off.

This is not true. Israel is trying to put a stop to Hamas. Civilians are killed by Israel because Hamas has put them between Israel's armed forces and itself. Israel perceives itself to be in an existential struggle with Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist organisations. They don't kill civilians to invoke terror, they do it because they have no other means of destroying Hamas.

Yes it's horrific and morally questionable, but Hamas wants Israel destroyed. How do you think Israel should be dealing with them?

Hamas is already doing that. They've been doing it for years. Hamas is a blood soaked terrorist organisation driven by a corrupt and evil ideology. If you have got a better way to stop them that doesn't involve the deaths of thousands of people, I beg you to tell us all what it is.

Possibly not commit war crimes?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And Israel even at its absolute worst ( and that is bad)  at least tries to follow basic modes of human behaviour, if not always international law.  It does not go into villages and rock concerts and start slaughtering people.

 Not since Deir Yassin in 1948.anyeay. When extremist Zionist  paramilitaries slaughtered 121 Palestinian villagers . You may have heard of it ?  Every Palestinian has - it is the worst single atrocity the Palestinians have suffered in theit long history of suffering. But to put what Hamas did in context,  Hamss slaughtered in excess of 700 equally innocent Israeli villagers and music concert goers on Saturday. Try and take that in. Try and open your mind and dump your cliched hopelessly inadequate leftist script.

This person is minimising the atrocities against Palestinian civilians over the decades by focusing on the Palestinian deaths in Deir Yassin in 1948. Palestinians have been facing atrocities on an ongoing basis since Israel's illegal occupation and terrorism provoked Palestinians to armed resistance. The death toll from Israeli terrorism, indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment of civilians over the years has been far greater than the hundreds of Israeli citizens murdered in the recent Hamas attack in Israel.

Just one attack documented in a 2021 report about an Israeli terrorist attack that took place on the night of May 15, records an Israeli airstrike hitting a house in the Al-Shati refugee camp in Gaza. Two mothers, sisters-in-law, were reportedly killed in the attack, along with eight children between the ages of 5 and 14. One 5-month-old boy was found by rescuers in the rubble from the attack still alive in his dead mother’s arms.

Blowing children into pieces is the effect of just one Israeli airstrike, and Israel has carried out thousands of airstrikes against Palestinian civilians before Hamas carried out its recent murderous operation. Prior to the attack by Hamas, Palestinian civilians including the elderly and children were under murderous attacks from Israel - they were being regularly shot and wounded or killed by IDF attacks near the border. 

[Nearly Sane]

This person is minimising the atrocities against Palestinian civilians over the decades by focusing on the Palestinian deaths in Deir Yassin in 1948. Palestinians have been facing atrocities on an ongoing basis since Israel's illegal occupation and terrorism provoked Palestinians to armed resistance. The death toll from Israeli terrorism, indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment of civilians over the years has been far greater than the hundreds of Israeli citizens murdered in the recent Hamas attack in Israel.

Just one attack documented in a 2021 report about an Israeli terrorist attack that took place on the night of May 15, records an Israeli airstrike hitting a house in the Al-Shati refugee camp in Gaza. Two mothers, sisters-in-law, were reportedly killed in the attack, along with eight children between the ages of 5 and 14. One 5-month-old boy was found by rescuers in the rubble from the attack still alive in his dead mother’s arms.

Blowing children into pieces is the effect of just one Israeli airstrike, and Israel has carried out thousands of airstrikes against Palestinian civilians before Hamas carried out its recent murderous operation. Prior to the attack by Hamas, Palestinian civilians including the elderly and children were under murderous attacks from Israel - they were being regularly shot and wounded or killed by IDF attacks near the border.

And more whataboutery to justify murder, just like Netanyahu.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

That's true. Hamas goes out specifically to murder civilians. Sometimes they take babies and cut their heads off.

Do you have independent verification of this? I only ask for evidence because the IDF are known for lying - they usually claim they were under lethal attack before they shoot dead Palestinian children.

This is not true. Israel is trying to put a stop to Hamas. Civilians are killed by Israel because Hamas has put them between Israel's armed forces and itself. Israel perceives itself to be in an existential struggle with Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist organisations. They don't kill civilians to invoke terror, they do it because they have no other means of destroying Hamas.

You are lying to yourself - possibly due to racism or propaganda you have already dehumanised Palestinian civilians in your mind to minimise their deaths. What is true is that Israel is carrying out terrorism by collectively punishing Palestinian civilians by cutting off electricity ,food, water, medical supplies and carrying out indiscriminate bombings in civilian areas as blood-thirsty revenge for the attack by Hamas.

Yes it's horrific and morally questionable, but Hamas wants Israel destroyed. How do you think Israel should be dealing with them?

Morally questionable? Interesting choice of words. Ok in that case let's describe the attack by Hamas as morally questionable as well. And let's similarly describe what Hamas has done in the same terms you used for Israel's actions. Civilians are killed by Hamas because Israel has put civilians in illegally occupied land stolen from Arabs after forcibly removing the original Arab occupants at gunpoint. Palestinians consider themselves to be in an existentialist struggle for statehood with Israel. Hamas and other Palestinian militants carry out terrorism because they have no other means to defeat Israeli armed occupation. How do you think Palestinians should be dealing with Israeli occupation? Perhaps if you come up with an answer to how Israeli terrorism should be dealt with, you might have an answer for your question about how Hamas terrorism should be dealt with.

A lot of people don't support Zionism or Islamism so wanting to dismantle a Jewish state created by force and illegally occupying Arab land or wanting to dismantle an Islamist state created by force and illegally occupying Arab land or UK land or any other land would probably receive wide support. Dismantling it by violent slaughter of civilians would probably not receive widespread support...at least you would have thought so but apparently exceptions are made if the civilians being violently slaughtered are of the wrong ethnic group.

Hamas is already doing that. They've been doing it for years. Hamas is a blood soaked terrorist organisation driven by a corrupt and evil ideology. If you have got a better way to stop them that doesn't involve the deaths of thousands of people, I beg you to tell us all what it is.

Israel has been illegally occupying someone else's land and shooting and terrorising civilians for decades. Are you suggesting that the way to stop that terrorism by Israel is to slaughter civilians? Hamas would probably agree with the way you think.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And more whataboutery to justify murder, just like Netanyahu.

Yes your friend is engaging in whataboutery to justify murder like Netanyahu. If you are posting his whataboutery then you too are engaging in whataboutery to justify murder like Netanyahu.

[SteveH]

Good article from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/11/israel-hamas-attack-gaza-9-11-cautionary-tale

[SteveH]

Forts an prares.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Good article from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/11/israel-hamas-attack-gaza-9-11-cautionary-tale

Yes - agree that many people will find it hard to support Israel's terrorism, collective punishments and indiscriminate attacks on civilians in response to Hamas terrorism.

The US response to 9/11 led to ISIS and lone wolf terrorist attacks in the West. Really hope the response to Israeli terrorism with the support of the international community will not be more terrorism - from Hamas or from something worse.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Israel is trying to put a stop to Hamas. Civilians are killed by Israel because Hamas has put them between Israel's armed forces and itself. Israel perceives itself to be in an existential struggle with Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist organisations. They don't kill civilians to invoke terror, they do it because they have no other means of destroying Hamas.

Yes it's horrific and morally questionable, but Hamas wants Israel destroyed. How do you think Israel should be dealing with them?

Not sure whether within Israel, this attack by Hamas will distract from the attention on Netanyahu's corruption and attempts to limit the powers of the judiciary. He was facing a lot of civil unrest in Israel recently. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/25/israel-protests-judicial-overhaul-reform-news-doctors-strike

It sounds cynical and too horrible to believe and there is no evidence as yet (one of the officers in the IDF interviewed said the inquiry into Israel's intelligence failure will take years - that's convenient) but given it's Netanyahu, I hope Netanyahu or his office did not allow this Hamas attack to take place to stop the civil unrest and protests he was facing in Israel. The Hamas attacks happened despite intelligence reports alerting Israel to a imminent terrorist attack. Netanyahu is describing reports he received such intelligence as "fake news". This well-known Trump line creates even more suspicion.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

Rajapaksa is accused of not preventing the 2019 bombings in Sri Lanka to create unrest to allow him to win the elections https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/8/ex-sri-lanka-leader-denies-2019-bombings-were-staged-to-help-him-win-polls

[Nearly Sane]

Yes your friend is engaging in whataboutery to justify murder like Netanyahu. If you are posting his whataboutery then you too are engaging in whataboutery t justify murder like Netanyahu.

I see as well as justifying murder you are happy to lie here.

[Nearly Sane]

Not sure whether within Israel, this attack by Hamas will distract from the attention on Netanyahu's corruption and attempts to limit the powers of the judiciary. He was facing a lot of civil unrest in Israel recently. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/25/israel-protests-judicial-overhaul-reform-news-doctors-strike

It sounds cynical and too horrible to believe and there is no evidence as yet (one of the officers in the IDF interviewed said the inquiry into Israel's intelligence failure will take years - that's convenient) but given it's Netanyahu, I hope Netanyahu or his office did not allow this Hamas attack to take place to stop the civil unrest and protests he was facing in Israel. The Hamas attacks happened despite intelligence reports alerting Israel to a imminent terrorist attack. Netanyahu is describing reports he received such intelligence as "fake news". This well-known Trump line creates even more suspicion.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

Rajapaksa is accused of not preventing the 2019 bombings in Sri Lanka to create unrest to allow him to win the elections https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/8/ex-sri-lanka-leader-denies-2019-bombings-were-staged-to-help-him-win-polls

TBH I did think that an acceptance of some risk in order to avoid exposing the intelligence as in the Coventry blitz in WW2 was a possibility. You're still then using whataboutery as a distraction from the murders.

[Nearly Sane]

Good article from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/11/israel-hamas-attack-gaza-9-11-cautionary-tale

I don't think it takes into account enough that for both participants here it can be portrayed as an 'existential threat' which was not the case for 9/11.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I see as well as justifying murder you are happy to lie here.

I noticed that about you - you being happy to lie.

[jeremyp]

Do you have independent verification of this?

I only ask for evidence because the IDF are known for lying - they usually claim they were under lethal attack before they shoot dead Palestinian children.
You are lying to yourself - possibly due to racism or propaganda you have already dehumanised Palestinian civilians in your mind to minimise their deaths. What is true is that Israel is carrying out terrorism by collectively punishing Palestinian civilians by cutting off electricity ,food, water, medical supplies and carrying out indiscriminate bombings in civilian areas as blood-thirsty revenge for the attack by Hamas.
Morally questionable? Interesting choice of words. Ok in that case let's describe the attack by Hamas as morally questionable as well. And let's similarly describe what Hamas has done in the same terms you used for Israel's actions. Civilians are killed by Hamas because Israel has put civilians in illegally occupied land stolen from Arabs after forcibly removing the original Arab occupants at gunpoint. Palestinians consider themselves to be in an existentialist struggle for statehood with Israel. Hamas and other Palestinian militants carry out terrorism because they have no other means to defeat Israeli armed occupation. How do you think Palestinians should be dealing with Israeli occupation? Perhaps if you come up with an answer to how Israeli terrorism should be dealt with, you might have an answer for your question about how Hamas terrorism should be dealt with.

A lot of people don't support Zionism or Islamism so wanting to dismantle a Jewish state created by force and illegally occupying Arab land or wanting to dismantle an Islamist state created by force and illegally occupying Arab land or UK land or any other land would probably receive wide support. Dismantling it by violent slaughter of civilians would probably not receive widespread support...at least you would have thought so but apparently exceptions are made if the civilians being violently slaughtered are of the wrong ethnic group.
Israel has been illegally occupying someone else's land and shooting and terrorising civilians for decades. Are you suggesting that the way to stop that terrorism by Israel is to slaughter civilians? Hamas would probably agree with the way you think.

Israel has been under constant attack since 1948.

If you want them to stop defending themselves by all the means that they deem necessary, you need to persuade the attackers to lay down their arms. Can you do that? I don't know how to.

By the way, this attack by Hamas has nothing to do with the illegally occupied parts of the West Bank.

I'll remind you again: Hamas's aim is to destroy Israel by Jihad. Nothing less is acceptable and they are fuelled by an ideology of hatred.