Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41668 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2023, 05:34:26 PM »
You're still then using whataboutery as a distraction from the murders.
You can put that after every comment anyone writes if you want. I guess it's up to you if you only want to contribute a one liner to the discussion.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2023, 05:34:49 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2023, 05:35:44 PM »
You can put that after every comment anyone writes if you want. I guess it's up to you if you only want to contribute a one liner to the discussion.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2023, 05:48:17 PM »
Israel has been under constant attack since 1948.
You mean from the date they attacked the Arab occupants of the land they forcibly took and declared the to be the state of Israel. You seem to be surprised - whereas Ben Gurion was expecting constant attack.

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If you want them to stop defending themselves by all the means that they deem necessary,
Yup - they need to follow the rules of international law
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you need to persuade the attackers to lay down their arms. Can you do that? I don't know how to.
Hmm - that's like saying if you want the attackers to stop attacking Israel you need tell Israel to allow the Palestinian refugees to exercise their right of return under international law, to the land Israel forced them from at gunpoint.   Can you do that? I don't know how to.

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By the way, this attack by Hamas has nothing to do with the illegally occupied parts of the West Bank.

I'll remind you again: Hamas's aim is to destroy Israel by Jihad. Nothing less is acceptable and they are fuelled by an ideology of hatred.
Whatever mediation happens between Israel and Hamas eventually, it is unlikely to address the root causes of the conflict. There does not seem to be any political will within Israel to address issues like the imprisonment of Palestinians, the freezing of Palestinian funds, the dire socioeconomic conditions in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, or the continuing settlement expansion. This means the Palestinian-Israeli conflict will continue to fester and produce cycles of violence.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/analysis-why-did-hamas-attack-now-and-what-is-next/ar-AA1i27uR

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2023, 05:50:56 PM »
Prolixity is not a virtue.
Sure - if you're happy with your one-liners and what they contribute to any discussion, you go ahead and enjoy yourself.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2023, 06:02:03 PM »
Sure - if you're happy with your one-liners and what they contribute to any discussion, you go ahead and enjoy yourself.
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jeremyp

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2023, 06:10:03 PM »
You mean from the date they attacked the Arab occupants of the land they forcibly took and declared the to be the state of Israel. You seem to be surprised - whereas Ben Gurion was expecting constant attack.
Well that is quite a distortion of the founding of the modern state of Israel.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2023, 06:28:03 PM »
Well that is quite a distortion of the founding of the modern state of Israel.
Only for people who haven't done much to educate themselves https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/15/the-nakba-five-palestinian-towns-massacred-75-years-ago
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Spud

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2023, 07:06:16 PM »
Regarding the belief that Palestine is the divinely ordained home of the Jewish people forever, a thought: wouldn't it be better to welcome them to live in those countries that want to protect them, and allow Palestinians to live freely in their rightful homeland? That way the Jews could be protected and the conflict with Palestinians would end. Of course Hamas would have to be defeated, like Isis.

This is the situation for Tamils in Sri Lanka, who are Hindus alongside the Buddhist Sinhalese. They had to accept they could not have their own Tamil State.
I can see that it might apply the opposite way around, given that Israel is an internationally recognised country.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2023, 07:19:14 PM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2023, 07:50:30 PM »
Follow up thought. If they could stamp out the two ideologies of Hamas (exterminate Israel) and Israelis (Palestine is exclusively theirs) things might improve, especially from the pov of the Gazans, who absolutely must be allowed to get out of there and live in Israel if they want.

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2023, 10:03:06 PM »

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2023, 07:29:33 AM »
Follow up thought. If they could stamp out the two ideologies of Hamas (exterminate Israel) and Israelis (Palestine is exclusively theirs) things might improve, especially from the pov of the Gazans, who absolutely must be allowed to get out of there and live in Israel if they want.
Or Egypt could open its border with the Gaza Strip, and allow all residents of Gaza to come and go freely and move permanently to Egypt if they want to.
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Outrider

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2023, 09:33:32 AM »
It's not a parallel, and suggesting it is seems a fairly obvious distraction from the murders by Hamas. You are indulfing in whataboutery, as are many happy to ignore the actions of the Israeli govt because of 'whatabout Hamas'.

The following is a post from a friend of over 40 years which says it better than I would. On a unrelated topic yesterday I was looking at editions of student newspaper  from when we first met and were camaigning for Palestine. The articles, editorials, and letters were filled with comments on Palestine and Israel. It felt as though nothing had changed.


""PALESTINE SOLIDARITY" CAMPAIGNERS!
HOW IS, NOT HOW YOU WOULD LKE IT TO BE

 I have been campaigning against Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza for decades and will continue to.

But what I  will not sign up to is a one- eyed outlook that totally ignores the context to what is ha happening now .. what I predicted would happen when I first heard of Hamas'nilateral breaking of the ceasefire and all our attack on Israel on Saturday.. And, unlike many Palestinian solidarity activists I cannot ignore, dissemble away, the massacres of hundreds of Israeli civilians on Saturday by Hamas.

Palestinians in Gaza "decided" nothing. The decision to invade Israel and immediately start slaughtering its border population, was taken by four people in the Hamas leadership, two of whom live in safety in Qatar. The inability of the "Hand Off Palestine" lobby to grasp this is depressing .Hamas is not Palestine. It is a fundamentalist ,bloodthirsty ,eliminatory Islamic sect which has seized control of Gaza by military means - , like Israel has seized control of the area in general, Only in an even more brutal way.. There is such a thing as a political opposition in Israel , including Arab Palestinian political parties Which support the creation of a Palestinian state.

And Israel even at its absolute worst ( and that is bad)  at least tries to follow basic modes of human behaviour, if not always international law.  It does not go into villages and rock concerts and start slaughtering people.

 Not since Deir Yassin in 1948.anyeay. When extremist Zionist  paramilitaries slaughtered 121 Palestinian villagers . You may have heard of it ?  Every Palestinian has - it is the worst single atrocity the Palestinians have suffered in theit long history of suffering. But to put what Hamas did in context,  Hamss slaughtered in excess of 700 equally innocent Israeli villagers and music concert goers on Saturday. Try and take that in. Try and open your mind and dump your cliched hopelessly inadequate leftist script.

The near total silence on this matter by Palestines Solidarity groups is depressing. But were at not for these sadistic acts on a mass scale by Hamas Guerillas, what is happening now in Gaza would not be happening.. Of course the situation was very bad - but there is very bad and there is appauling ,as we are now seeing.  There is having electricity  and water and not having electricity and water   There is being bombed by wave after wave of f121, and not being bombed repeatedly by Israeli aircraft . And this simply would eould not be happening if the full scale invasion of Gaza by Israel that we are witnessing and is about to get a lot worse.had Hamas's dictatorial leadership not pulled the trigger. 

And those who talk about Palestine's right to defend itself are basically talking bullshit. There is defending yourself, and there is going into attack and slaughtering sleeping families en masse. Equally Israel - there is defending yourselves and indiscriminately bombing as a civilian population in an concentrated urban area.   And cutting off water and electricity to an entire population of ove  2 million people is not defending yourself

But any discussion about the suffering of the Palestinian people which does not put Hamas at the centre of The blame for much if it is hopelessly incomplete.  Your long history lessons do not address what happened on Saturday.

 The situation on the West Bank is dire, is not a all good. But compared to what is happening in Gaza ? That the West Bank it is getting near zero attention , not just by the mainstream media but by Palestine Solidarity organisations makes my point  Israel is still the same occupying authority. The difference is Gaza is run by Hamas and the West Bank by Fatah And Fatah is a far from good leadership. It is just not genocidal. Tries its best to keep to international law and basic modes of humanity

Graspe that and you might just begin to start understanding The current situation.. Anyone Who fails to, refuses t , is not just hopelessly uninformed, but is failing the Palestinian people   Your solidarity is one-eyed, and with it wholly ineffective"

I'm not sure who you think I'm in solidarity with, here, but I suspect you're mistaken. I've been a long-standing critic of the Israeli regime for its treatment of the Palestinian people and territories, and I'm equally critical of its disproportionate response to these attacks, which is in no way intended as any sort of tacit support for Hamas' actions which are deplorable in their own right.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2023, 09:34:22 AM »
If Israel stops its restriction of water to the Palestinians, that might be a first step in the right direction so that Palestinians in the communities lacking water don't understandably shrug their shoulders when Israelis get slaughtered. The Palestinians in those areas are not being animals when they shrug their shoulders about Israeli families being slaughtered - they are being human. If people on this forum were in that situation they would also shrug their shoulders about Israelis being slaughtered. Luckily we are living in comfort in the West so we, along with international leaders, can have the luxury of tut tutting at the slaughter of Israelis by Hamas.

Ramallah, Occupied West Bank – As Palestinians suffer through severe water shortages in the searing summer, illegal Israeli settlers nearby enjoy unlimited quantities not only for drinking but to fill swimming pools, irrigate crops, and wash their vehicles.

The extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain.

In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA. Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2023, 12:19:13 PM »
Regarding the belief that Palestine is the divinely ordained home of the Jewish people forever, a thought: wouldn't it be better to welcome them to live in those countries that want to protect them, and allow Palestinians to live freely in their rightful homeland? That way the Jews could be protected and the conflict with Palestinians would end. Of course Hamas would have to be defeated, like Isis.

This is the situation for Tamils in Sri Lanka, who are Hindus alongside the Buddhist Sinhalese. They had to accept they could not have their own Tamil State.
I can see that it might apply the opposite way around, given that Israel is an internationally recognised country.
Agreed the Tamils who wanted a separate Tamil state have currently accepted they cannot have their own homeland - they wanted it because they faced discriminatory laws and widespread racist attacks from nationalist extremists with no protection from the authorities. Many Tamils were murdered or lost their homes. The Prevention of Terrorism Act and other laws passed in Sri Lanka today allow arbitrary arrest of people and they are often tortured held without charge for months, sometimes years.

However, unlike the sudden influx of Jews into Palestine in the 20th century, the Tamils and Sinhalese have lived in Sri Lanka since at least 2 BC and the Tamils were asking for about 6 or 7 % of the total land area of Sri Lanka. The UN Partition Plan allocated approximately 55% of the land of historic Palestine (including some of the most fertile land) to the Jewish state even though Jews only owned 7% of the land. Following wars Israel acquired even more of the land by forcibly removing Arabs and not allowing the Arab refugees to return to their homelands.

Under the circumstances, many Palestinians probably think they have been pretty restrained. I am not particularly surprised, given the diversity of human personalities in difficult circumstances, that some Palestinians such as Hamas have such extreme reactions to Israeli oppression. Not everyone's nature/ nurture will lead them to be a Gandhi or a Mandela.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2023, 12:56:06 PM »
Interesting article from Yuval Noah Harari


https://archive.vn/Y0gol

Sriram

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2023, 01:30:44 PM »



Now Israel is attacking Syria. Its becoming bigger.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2023, 01:53:49 PM »


Now Israel is attacking Syria. Its becoming bigger.
In itself Israel sending bombs into Syria is sadly not unusual, but this does seem to be all a bit 'slouching towards Bethlehem'


https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/israel-strikes-syria-airports-amid-war-with-hamas-report-101697111519876.html
« Last Edit: October 12, 2023, 01:57:09 PM by Nearly Sane »

Sriram

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2023, 02:13:38 PM »



I read somewhere that some people are trying to build the Third Temple. Really going for it....what?!  Is Armageddon around the corner then..?

For people like us who are far away from the action, it is an interesting watch....but sadly not for the civilians, the little children and their mothers.....on both sides. :(

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2023, 02:43:41 PM »
Agreed the Tamils who wanted a separate Tamil state have currently accepted they cannot have their own homeland - they wanted it because they faced discriminatory laws and widespread racist attacks from nationalist extremists with no protection from the authorities. Many Tamils were murdered or lost their homes. The Prevention of Terrorism Act and other laws passed in Sri Lanka today allow arbitrary arrest of people and they are often tortured held without charge for months, sometimes years.

However, unlike the sudden influx of Jews into Palestine in the 20th century, the Tamils and Sinhalese have lived in Sri Lanka since at least 2 BC and the Tamils were asking for about 6 or 7 % of the total land area of Sri Lanka. The UN Partition Plan allocated approximately 55% of the land of historic Palestine (including some of the most fertile land) to the Jewish state even though Jews only owned 7% of the land. Following wars Israel acquired even more of the land by forcibly removing Arabs and not allowing the Arab refugees to return to their homelands.

Under the circumstances, many Palestinians probably think they have been pretty restrained. I am not particularly surprised, given the diversity of human personalities in difficult circumstances, that some Palestinians such as Hamas have such extreme reactions to Israeli oppression. Not everyone's nature/ nurture will lead them to be a Gandhi or a Mandela.
So if you can't be Mandela, it's perfectly ok to murder babies because that's the only 2 choices available.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2023, 02:46:03 PM »


I read somewhere that some people are trying to build the Third Temple. Really going for it....what?!  Is Armageddon around the corner then..?

For people like us who are far away from the action, it is an interesting watch....but sadly not for the civilians, the little children and their mothers.....on both sides. :(

https://www.israel365news.com/352915/jews-begin-building-third-temple-on-israel-independence-day/

Rabbi Kook. Hmmm....

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2023, 02:46:23 PM »
Rory Stewart being rather brilliant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAs5EOBUDcs
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2023, 02:53:21 PM »
So if you can't be Mandela, it's perfectly ok to murder babies because that's the only 2 choices available.
If that's how you feel, ok.

It's fascinating watching you in action.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2023, 02:56:46 PM »
VG,

Quote
If that's how you feel, ok.

It's fascinating watching you in action.

That's not how he feels - he was asking you whether that's your position.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2023, 03:07:16 PM »
VG,

That's not how he feels - he was asking you whether that's your position.
I didn't see a question there. An obvious interpretation is that NS thinks it's ok to murder babies. That's why I thought it fascinating that a mod on this forum appears to think it's ok to murder babies...that Hamas and Netanyahu feel that way doesn't surprise me but that someone on this forum apparently thinks it's ok to murder babies I found fascinating. 

Do you think it's ok to murder babies too?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi