Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41811 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #125 on: October 16, 2023, 04:20:28 PM »
That's hypocritical given your own bias and poor comprehension skills. Instead of being evasive or disingenuous, try just answering the question you were asked. What position is it that you think I hold?
I've explained the context. Your ad hominems are irrelevant, both here, and to those suffering in Gaza.





The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #126 on: October 16, 2023, 04:35:41 PM »
I've explained the context. Your ad hominems are irrelevant, both here, and to those suffering in Gaza.
Evasion noted. Are you pretending you are not biased?
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #127 on: October 16, 2023, 04:52:42 PM »
What position is it that you think I hold?
I personally don't know what position you hold.
I also don't know what solution you would propose to solve, as much as it could possibly be solved, the ending of the cycle of violence.

Could you enlighten?
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SqueakyVoice

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #128 on: October 16, 2023, 05:34:17 PM »
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all" - D Adams

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #129 on: October 16, 2023, 05:35:48 PM »
Both Sunak and Starmer's rhetoric here seems to absolve Israel for any responsibility for their actions.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67126316

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #130 on: October 16, 2023, 07:05:19 PM »
There's something of a scorecard mentality with news programmes talking about and putting the numbers of those murdered up on screen that I find simplistic and distasteful.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #131 on: October 16, 2023, 11:53:13 PM »
I personally don't know what position you hold.
I also don't know what solution you would propose to solve, as much as it could possibly be solved, the ending of the cycle of violence.

Could you enlighten?
Well let's see - the obvious one is that peace is impossible without justice and restitution as required by international law. If you kill or injure civilians by shooting them, burning them, dismembering them, decapitating them either close-up like Hamas or from a distance like Israel or by forcing them off their land or collectively punishing them by starving them, and cutting off water and electricity you are committing acts of terrorism, breaking international law and should be brought to justice. If perpetrators are not held to account there is no reason for the violence to end. So use the intelligence services and technology and soldiers to capture Hamas terrorists and put them on trial; and use travel restrictions, international arrest warrants and cut off funding for arms and settlements to hold members of the Israeli government and the IDF accountable for their terrorism against civilians. George Bush Snr managed to halt settlement building and bring Israel to the negotiating table https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-lonely-little-george-h-w-bush-changed-the-us-israel-relationship/

I've no idea how JP makes the arbitrary distinctions that Hamas indiscriminately punishing civilians is terrorism but when Israel does it, it isn't terrorism just because Israel pays lip service to not wanting to hurt civilians while simultaneously indiscriminately bombing civilian areas.

If states or organisations act outside of international law and some are given a free pass and funded and armed by the international community while others are held to account, the international community itself becomes obstacles to peace. Regional conflicts will inevitably be exported to the international communities as those being discriminated against in terms of funding and arms and the most basic of human rights will try to neutralise this uneven international interference whose foundation is racism and self-interest and which goes against philosophical ideas of natural justice.

Peace is definitely unachievable by the international community continuing down the self-destructive racism, short-term self-interest and colonial mindset route that drew lines on a map and created states in foreign lands to favour one race over another. Very few people seem fooled by the propaganda where people pretend or pay lip service to abstract notions of neutrality, justice or fairness. The non-Western governments are at least more honest about their racism and naked self-interest and corruption.

The international community should stop its one-sided political support for Zionist claims of a right to return. Zionists want to return to a homeland that Jews were expelled from by the Roman Empire almost 2000 years ago. Not surprising then that the Palestinians will have a stronger dream and attachment to return to their homes and land after they were forcibly expelled by Israeli state terrorism only 75 years ago. The Zionists knew they would be fighting the Arabs they forcibly displaced for this land but thought the Palestinians would get old and die and the young would forget, even though the  Zionists did not forget after almost 2000 years. Once the Zionists realised the Palestinians were not going to forget, they started using propaganda and lobbying to try to control the narrative and dehumanise the Palestinians. The recent pro-Palestinian demonstrations show that many ordinary people are not fooled or silenced by the propaganda.

In addition, there are many Jews who are horrified by the racism inherent in Zionism and many Palestinians who have no desire to return to their former farmlands, and many people on both sides who are not prepared to pay the price of indiscriminately killing civilians to keep hold of land. So we should ignore the Jewish lobby's attempts to shut down debate by calling it antisemitism. If people are prevented from discussing  issues and solving problems through dialogue, they will resort to violence instead, as they have done many times in the past. After all, there are only 2 options available - diplomacy or a cycle of violence. Genocide is not a workable option - too many people to kill and people's beliefs protect them from giving up  - if you believe in a cause bigger than yourself such as your nation, your political aspirations, your ancestors and heritage or your god, as humans you are prepared to suffer and die and kill for it.

Pretending that humans do not resort to violence and terrorism when faced with discrimination is wishful thinking and a denial of reality. When we discuss the Holocaust we don't devalue the horror by only looking at the kill rate of one gas chamber in one concentration camp - we form opinions by looking at the total number of deaths and displacements of people by the Nazis. We also don't ignore the context of Europe turning a blind eye to pogroms and the Holocaust or the effects of Palestinian terrorism when discussing what drives Zionist zeal and terrorism.  Similarly, we can't overlook the context of international funding of Israeli terrorism during the formation and expansion of Israel, and nor can we ignore the disproportionate number of Palestinians (especially children) killed and displaced by Israel's actions, when discussing what drives militant Palestinian zeal and terrorism.

Ignoring Israeli terrorism sends the message that the international community don't really have a problem with terrorism, and this perpetuates the terrorism on both sides - why would Hamas stop its terrorism and indiscriminate collective punishment of civilians if the international community accepts terrorism as an option by turning a blind eye to Israeli terrorism, and similarly why would Israel stop using the terrorism of indiscriminate, collective, violent punishment on civilians if the international community turns a blind eye to it?   

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/may/18/a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return

« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 12:00:24 AM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2023, 12:31:54 AM »
Interview with an Israeli survivor from the recent attack on Kibbutz Be’eri near the Gaza boundary, says Israeli forces killed their own civilians while combating Palestinian fighters.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyeXqM7ScJh/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng%3D%3D
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Spud

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2023, 01:41:17 AM »
Both Sunak and Starmer's rhetoric here seems to absolve Israel for any responsibility for their actions.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67126316
Andrea Leadsom on LBC last night: no evidence of war crimes by Israel.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #134 on: October 17, 2023, 01:59:49 AM »

After all, there are only 2 options available - diplomacy or a cycle of violence


Are those your proposed solution(s)?

And I'm guessing that the rest of your post is your position?
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2023, 08:02:28 AM »
Are those your proposed solution(s)?

You asked for a solution to end the cycles of violence so the only alternative to violence is dialogue and accountability. From my post some practical measures to end the cycle of violence:

International community end its one-sided support - so exert pressure to end collective punishments of civilians, hold both Hamas and Israel accountable for breaking international law, halt Israel's building of settlements, uphold international law by championing right of return to Israel of refugees or Israel offering restitution to compensate for the land, houses and property stolen from them by Israelis. There is no solution to ending the violence if the goal of the international community is to preserve the Jewishness of the state of Israel while Israel is stealing more land through violence. 

Use the intelligence services and technology and soldiers to capture Hamas terrorists and put them on trial; and use travel restrictions, international arrest warrants and cut off funding for arms and settlements to hold members of the Israeli government and the IDF accountable for their terrorism against civilians. George Bush Snr managed to halt settlement building and bring Israel to the negotiating table https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-lonely-little-george-h-w-bush-changed-the-us-israel-relationship/

Ignore the Jewish lobby's attempts to shut down debate by calling it antisemitism.

Don't ignore ignore the disproportionate number of Palestinians (especially children) killed and displaced by Israel's actions
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2023, 08:12:04 AM »
Andrea Leadsom on LBC last night: no evidence of war crimes by Israel.
I might want someone more reliably truthful than Leadsom to comment but the blockade is a war crime.

Spud

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #137 on: October 17, 2023, 09:00:52 AM »
I might want someone more reliably truthful than Leadsom to comment but the blockade is a war crime.
I agree. I couldn't believe she said that (6:25 minutes into the discussion).

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #138 on: October 17, 2023, 09:08:22 AM »
Well let's see - the obvious one is that peace is impossible without justice and restitution as required by international law....
Is that obvious? To take one example close by, that's not the process used for the move to peace in Northern Ireland.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 09:17:39 AM by Nearly Sane »

jeremyp

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #139 on: October 17, 2023, 09:25:46 AM »
But surely Hamas then argues it's reacting to Israeli conduct in the West Bank?
No. Hamas argues Israel shouldn't exist. Their problem is not what Israel is doing but the fact that it is a secular state in the Holy Land.
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jeremyp

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #140 on: October 17, 2023, 09:30:49 AM »
Do you want a solution that is morally right i.e. it is consistent regardless of race and has been applied to many refugees across the world under international law,
That would be great, but I can't see it happening.
Quote
or are you looking for a solution that favours the Israelis and discriminates against Palestinians because you think Israel is not required to follow international law or be held to the same standards as other countries?

A solution that stops all the killing from both sides would be a start, I think.

I can think of one realistic option, but I don't think it would work.

Have you got a solution? It's OK to say no. I don't think there is a workable one.

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jeremyp

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #141 on: October 17, 2023, 09:45:39 AM »

I've no idea how JP makes the arbitrary distinctions that Hamas indiscriminately punishing civilians is terrorism but when Israel does it, it isn't terrorism just because Israel pays lip service to not wanting to hurt civilians while simultaneously indiscriminately bombing civilian areas.

It's not arbitrary. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that targets civilians. Israel is a nation state that targets terrorists but doesn't care when Palestinian civilians are in the way. They commit war crimes but that doesn't make them terrorists. Your use of the language is deliberately emotive and it doesn't help people to evaluate the situation.



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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #142 on: October 17, 2023, 09:46:56 AM »
No. Hamas argues Israel shouldn't exist. Their problem is not what Israel is doing but the fact that it is a secular state in the Holy Land.
False dichotomy. Hamas has and does argue that its actions are provoked by Israel's.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #143 on: October 17, 2023, 09:48:09 AM »
It's not arbitrary. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that targets civilians. Israel is a nation state that targets terrorists but doesn't care when Palestinian civilians are in the way. They commit war crimes but that doesn't make them terrorists. Your use of the language is deliberately emotive and it doesn't help people to evaluate the situation.
Does war crimes vs terrorism make any difference to the children who are murdered by both/either?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #144 on: October 17, 2023, 09:49:05 AM »
That would be great, but I can't see it happening.
A solution that stops all the killing from both sides would be a start, I think.

I can think of one realistic option, but I don't think it would work.

Have you got a solution? It's OK to say no. I don't think there is a workable one.
if it wouldn't work, it's not realistic.

ekim

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #145 on: October 17, 2023, 10:24:10 AM »
That would be great, but I can't see it happening.
A solution that stops all the killing from both sides would be a start, I think.

I can think of one realistic option, but I don't think it would work.

Have you got a solution? It's OK to say no. I don't think there is a workable one.
I'm not very optimistic either.  There may be a temporary patch applied but the festering will probably continue.  You wouldn't think they were worshiping the same God.  I suspect that Russia is happy that the spotlight has been distracted away from Ukraine.  With expanding world populations and more and more sophisticated weapons of mass destruction I suspect that we can expect more and more indiscriminate deaths and destruction.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #146 on: October 17, 2023, 02:51:13 PM »
False dichotomy. Hamas has and does argue that its actions are provoked by Israel's.
Indeed. And I was rather surprised to hear Hanan Ashrawi, whom I had always thought took a measured view, giving the impression that she thought that Israel's actions had been entirely at fault for decades. I was very surprised to hear not one condemnation of the recent attack by Hamas, which most people would think was barbaric and quite obviously mobilized Israel to go to war (their methods in doing  this look like being even more barbaric than those of Hamas, but that doesn't alter the original trigger event).
Ashrawi seemed mildly amused at Israel's aim to obliterate Hamas, saying it was utterly impossible. I got the impression that she's abandoned her previous diplomatic attitude - or maybe she never had one? Enlighten me.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #148 on: October 17, 2023, 07:10:19 PM »
Is that obvious? To take one example close by, that's not the process used for the move to peace in Northern Ireland.
I was thinking more of the example of restitution of property to Jews that was confiscated during the Holocaust - we have a situation where Jewish people faced theft and looting of their land and property by Europeans during the Holocaust so they thought the solution was to immediately turn around and steal and loot the property of Palestinians and inflict ethnic cleansing on them immediately after the war ended. A classic case of brutalised people continuing the violence by inflicting abuse on others.

I would say the difference in NI is that confiscation by Protestant English of land owned by Catholics happened in the 1600s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland, whereas land lost by Palestinians happened only 75 years ago and there is significant documentation of the places they lost - i.e. the Palestinian situation is more like the situation for Jews under the Nazis and partial restitution of property stolen from Jews during the Holocaust. Though given the situation of Jews moving back to Palestine and stealing land to restore the state of Israel after being expelled 2000 years ago by the Romans, maybe the Arabs still have time for restitution  ::).

Justice in the NI peace process was power-sharing between the parties in conflict, so again I don't think peace can be achieved without Palestinian autonomy, which requires dismantling Jewish settlements in the West Bank. The areas given to Palestinian control are little islands dotted around the West Bank so it is impossible to form a Palestinian state. That needs to change - without justice there can't be peace. https://www.btselem.org/planning_and_building

Similarities between NI and the Palestinian situation and actually most of these conflicts where there is a violent state response to people aspiring for equality followed by a military occupying force of a civilian population, is that a rationale for terrorism against the occupiers develops due to state repression and brutalisation of civilians.
 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #149 on: October 17, 2023, 07:13:04 PM »
I was thinking more of the example of restitution of property to Jews that was confiscated during the Holocaust - we have a situation where Jewish people faced theft and looting of their land and property by Europeans during the Holocaust so they thought the solution was to immediately turn around and steal and loot the property of Palestinians and inflict ethnic cleansing on them immediately after the war ended. A classic case of brutalised people continuing the violence by inflicting abuse on others.

I would say the difference in NI is that confiscation by Protestant English of land owned by Catholics happened in the 1600s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland, whereas land lost by Palestinians happened only 75 years ago and there is significant documentation of the places they lost - i.e. the Palestinian situation is more like the situation for Jews under the Nazis and partial restitution of property stolen from Jews during the Holocaust. Though given the situation of Jews moving back to Palestine and stealing land to restore the state of Israel after being expelled 2000 years ago by the Romans, maybe the Arabs still have time for restitution  ::).

Justice in the NI peace process was power-sharing between the parties in conflict, so again I don't think peace can be achieved without Palestinian autonomy, which requires dismantling Jewish settlements in the West Bank. The areas given to Palestinian control are little islands dotted around the West Bank so it is impossible to form a Palestinian state. That needs to change - without justice there can't be peace. https://www.btselem.org/planning_and_building

Similarities between NI and the Palestinian situation and actually most of these conflicts where there is a violent state response to people aspiring for equality followed by a military occupying force of a civilian population, is that a rationale for terrorism against the occupiers develops due to state repression and brutalisation of civilians.
Are you saying that when you said it was 'impossible', it was merely you expressing an opinion about what you think in this specific circumstance. I was pointing out that a peace has happened without it. That is in no sense claiming that the 2 situations are exactly the same.