Hamas attacks Israel.

[Spud]

A quick question, which I can probably Google - Does Hamas aim to eradicate Jews or just reclaim Palestine from them?

[bluehillside Retd.]

VG,

BHS - and why are you lying about me lying?

I'm not. Feel free to demonstrate otherwise though by telling us where he advocated murdering babies. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

VG,

I'm not. Feel free to demonstrate otherwise though by telling us where he advocated murdering babies.

Why are you still lying about not lying?

Feel free to answer all the questions and points I put to you on this thread if you want a response to this. I'm not wasting time answering your points while you ignore mine.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

A quick question, which I can probably Google - Does Hamas aim to eradicate Jews or just reclaim Palestine from them?

Based on JP's link Hamas accepts a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, it does not recognise the state of Israel, it does not seek to eradicate the Jews and does not see this as a religious conflict but it is against the political goal of Zionism on the basis that Zionism deprived Arabs in Palestine of their right to self-determination, required Arab ethnic cleansing to achieve a Jewish state, and perpetuates discriminatory laws within Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories where Arabs are treated worse than Jewish Israelis.

This link elaborates on JP's link https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Am I indulging in a blame game? The difference is that I don't think you get to a who started it here. Both the Hamas  terrorist attacks and the Israeli war crimes ars heinous but the solution won't be about that. If you stick to your and Gabriella's mirror position, you'll just keep the slaughter going.

Sounds like you are indulging in the blame game here, since apparently JP and me arguing on a forum will, according to you, keep the slaughter going. In that case I think this blame game attitude of yours on this forum while never managing to present any evidence for your assertions is also keeping the slaughter of Palestinian and Israeli civilians going. So now what?

Personally I think it sounds more sensible to say that if Israel keeps doing what they have been doing since they were formed such as ethnic cleansing and collective punishment and terrorising of Palestinian civilians, it will keep the slaughter of Palestinian civilians going. If Hamas keep doing what they have been doing since they were formed such as committing acts of terrorism as they just did on 7 October, that will keep the slaughter of Israeli civilians going.

As already covered in reply to Gabriella, the peace we have in Northern Ireland has only come about by not seeking recriminations and blame.

And as I responded, there was a requirement for justice in NI through the establishment of a mechanism of power-sharing and autonomy and free movement and elections. In Palestine the justice requirement is a viable contiguous Palestinian state which would require the dismantling of Israeli settlements. Restitution would be the Right of Return for refugees, which is a right protected under international law. There were no refugees in NI like in Palestine as this was not a feature of the conflict in NI. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

VG,

Why are you still lying about not lying?

Again, if you think you're not lying about what NS said then it should be simple matter for you to show us where he advocated murdering babies.

Why can't you? 

Feel free to answer all the questions and points I put to you on this thread if you want a response to this. I'm not wasting time answering your points while you ignore mine.

Your "questions and points" are your standard playbook when you get something arse-backwards. Rather than address the explanation for why you got something arse-backwards, instead you indulge in ever more convoluted diversions and prevarications.

It's very simple - either show us where NS advocated murdering babies or, when you can't do that (and you can't because he hasn't done that at all), withdraw the comment and apologise for making it.

[Nearly Sane]

.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

VG,

Again, if you think you're not lying about what NS said then it should be simple matter for you to show us where he advocated murdering babies.

Why can't you? 

Your "questions and points" are your standard playbook when you get something arse-backwards. Rather than address the explanation for why you got something arse-backwards, instead you indulge in ever more convoluted diversions and prevarications.

It's very simple - either show us where NS advocated murdering babies or, when you can't do that (and you can't because he hasn't done that at all), withdraw the comment and apologise for making it.

Again - why are you still lying to us?

It's very simple - when you address the points made to you instead of you lying to us, being evasive and making assertions that you can't support with evidence - something you have in common with NS, and when you and NS withdraw your lies and apologise, I will be happy to show you again where NS said it was ok to kill babies.

[Nearly Sane]

Some small good news

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67142031

[Spud]

Based on JP's link Hamas accepts a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, it does not recognise the state of Israel, it does not seek to eradicate the Jews and does not see this as a religious conflict but it is against the political goal of Zionism on the basis that Zionism deprived Arabs in Palestine of their right to self-determination, required Arab ethnic cleansing to achieve a Jewish state, and perpetuates discriminatory laws within Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories where Arabs are treated worse than Jewish Israelis.

This link elaborates on JP's link https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders

Thanks Gabriella.

[Dicky Underpants]

Again - why are you still lying to us?

It's very simple - when you address the points made to you instead of you lying to us, being evasive and making assertions that you can't support with evidence - something you have in common with NS, and when you and NS withdraw your lies and apologise, I will be happy to show you again where NS said it was ok to kill babies.

No, you are the one who is lying. And less of the 'us' - I don't know who you think you are speaking for.

[Nearly Sane]

I guess the Palestinians just need to shake it off. Ffs!

https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1714922694414598419

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

No, you are the one who is lying. And less of the 'us' - I don't know who you think you are speaking for.

Yes BHS is lying about me lying. Why are you also lying about me lying?

I don’t know why BHS claims to speak for ‘us’ either. Maybe he’s insecure about the points he’s trying to make and needs to pretend he has the support of the forum. But I figured if that’s the convention on here to say ‘us’ I’d go along with it to be sociable seeing as we’re all such good friends on here Dicky 

BHS - take note - apparently Dicky doesn’t like posters saying they’re speaking for ‘us’

[bluehillside Retd.]

VG,

Again - why are you still lying to us?

It's very simple - when you address the points made to you instead of you lying to us, being evasive and making assertions that you can't support with evidence - something you have in common with NS, and when you and NS withdraw your lies and apologise,…

And another item from your playbook is to respond to any criticism by just making the same criticism back regardless of the facts (the tu quoque fallacy).

It’s very simple: you accused (several times) NS of advocating the murder of babies. He didn’t do that. Your choice therefore is to withdraw and apologise, or to justify the claim with a citation.

So far, you’ve managed to do neither.

I will be happy to show you again where NS said it was ok to kill babies.

“Again”?

In any case, why don’t you just to do that then?

[Spud]

Based on JP's link Hamas accepts a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, it does not recognise the state of Israel, it does not seek to eradicate the Jews and does not see this as a religious conflict but it is against the political goal of Zionism on the basis that Zionism deprived Arabs in Palestine of their right to self-determination, required Arab ethnic cleansing to achieve a Jewish state, and perpetuates discriminatory laws within Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories where Arabs are treated worse than Jewish Israelis.

This link elaborates on JP's link https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders

You mention Zionism. How significant a role do Christian Zionists play in the Western support of Israel? These are radical protestants who believe in the future conversion of Israel to Christianity and that the formation of Israel in 1948 fulfilled Old Testament prophecy.
My gut feeling about the 'solution' is that the Israelis should make restitution to the displaced Palestinians and allow them to integrate among them in Israel. I don't think allowing the Israelis to have their own state exclusive of the Palestinians works.

[bluehillside Retd.]

VG,

Yes BHS is lying about me lying. Why are you also lying about me lying?

No BHS isn’t. You could resolve this with an example of NS advocating he murder of babies of course, but you seem to be either unwilling or unable to do so. Why is that? 

I don’t know why BHS claims to speak for ‘us’ either.

He doesn’t.

Maybe he’s insecure about the points he’s trying to make…

He isn’t.

… and needs to pretend he has the support of the forum.

He hasn’t done that.

But I figured if that’s the convention on here to say ‘us’ I’d go along with it to be sociable seeing as we’re all such good friends on here Dicky

Claiming to speak speaking for other people isn’t the convention here.

BHS - take note - apparently Dicky doesn’t like posters saying they’re speaking for ‘us’

Why should I take note of something I haven’t done?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

VG,

And another item from your playbook is to respond to any criticism by just making the same criticism back regardless of the facts (the tu quoque fallacy).

It’s very simple: you accused (several times) NS of advocating the murder of babies. He didn’t do that. Your choice therefore is to withdraw and apologise, or to justify the claim with a citation.

So far, you’ve managed to do neither.

“Again”?

In any case, why don’t you just to do that then?

See my reply #182

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You mention Zionism. How significant a role do Christian Zionists play in the Western support of Israel? These are radical protestants who believe in the future conversion of Israel to Christianity and that the formation of Israel in 1948 fulfilled Old Testament prophecy.

I hadn't thought about them and hadn't looked into the role of Christian Zionists in this particular round of the conflict but I agree they seemed to have influence over Trump and were very supportive of Israel and did not favour a 2-state solution because they thought all the land should be part of the state of Israel. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/16/mike-pompeo-israel-biblical-claim-palestine-not-occupying

I'm not sure how much influence they have over Biden. They are a sizeable voting block, certainly compared to the Jewish Zionists in the US

My gut feeling about the 'solution' is that the Israelis should make restitution to the displaced Palestinians and allow them to integrate among them in Israel. I don't think allowing the Israelis to have their own state exclusive of the Palestinians works.

My gut feeling is the Zionists were expecting this level of opposition to having a Jewish state because they always knew a deep attachment to the land is something they share with the Arabs. At least that's what I infer from the quotes from the first PM of Israel, Ben Gurion.

I think they knew they would have to keep brutalising the Palestinians to hold onto their state. They just keep hoping I think that if they keep up a narrative that focuses on the Holocaust and anti-Semitism and dehumanises Palestinians, they will be able to tough out the criticism and guilt many people into not openly calling them out for their terrorism of civilians. From the number of people who attended the recent pro-Palestinian marches and called out Israel for its racism, it looks like the tactics of the Zionist lobby haven't been as effective as they hoped.

[Dicky Underpants]

Yes BHS is lying about me lying. Why are you also lying about me lying?

I don’t know why BHS claims to speak for ‘us’ either. Maybe he’s insecure about the points he’s trying to make and needs to pretend he has the support of the forum. But I figured if that’s the convention on here to say ‘us’ I’d go along with it to be sociable seeing as we’re all such good friends on here Dicky 

BHS - take note - apparently Dicky doesn’t like posters saying they’re speaking for ‘us’

I'm not lying about you lying. If BHS used 'us', he's quite entitled too, since he was supporting NS. That makes two, and as I remember my English grammar, that makes a plural, and 'us' is entirely appropriate.

Maybe he’s insecure about the points he’s trying to make and needs to pretend he has the support of the forum

Irony meters explode all round.

You might make more friends (if that concerns you) if you occasionally conceded that you were wrong. You're trivialising a serious thread, and I'm a fool for rising to your bait, by effectively doing the same. See, I can admit my faults.

[Nearly Sane]

Some small good news

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67142031

Small and very very slow


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67156084

[Nearly Sane]

I hadn't thought about them and hadn't looked into the role of Christian Zionists in this particular round of the conflict but I agree they seemed to have influence over Trump ...

Given Trump's reaction, any influence may have gone


https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/13/politics/donald-trump-israel-netanyahu-diplomacy/index.html

[Dicky Underpants]

A quick question, which I can probably Google - Does Hamas aim to eradicate Jews or just reclaim Palestine from them?

If they didn't before, they certainly do now. Though they probably did all along. Buying time by weasel words, and waiting their moment. Diverting millions in financial help which might have helped the everyday situation of the Palestinians, into building tunnels under Gaza and into Israel in order to stage surprise attacks.

Israel's response, though predictable, has now probably incentivised thousands more Palestinians to join Hamas. Kill one Hamas activist, and ten rise up to take his place, so I've heard suggested.
I only hope the perceived divisions in outlook and allegiance between the Muslim peoples, especially the Arab ones, will be a sufficient deterrent to prevent this from escalating into a world-wide conflict.

[Nearly Sane]

'Omid Djalili show cancelled over 'personal threats over Israel situation''

Hmmm....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-67162627

[Dicky Underpants]

With regard to the differences between Muslim states, which may yet act as a brake on the escalating conflict, let us not forget the Iraq - Iran war, which was waged for 8 years from 1980 to 1988. It caused more death and destruction than all the Arab-Israel wars put together.
But nobody paid that much attention to that one.

[Dicky Underpants]

'Omid Djalili show cancelled over 'personal threats over Israel situation''

Hmmm....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-67162627

As a Ba'hai, he's a bit like Treebeard the Ent, isn't he?