Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41955 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #200 on: October 19, 2023, 06:06:51 PM »
As a Ba'hai, he's a bit like Treebeard the Ent, isn't he?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #201 on: October 20, 2023, 08:20:05 AM »

Alan Burns

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #202 on: October 20, 2023, 10:02:41 AM »
There could be a solution to this.

I know of Christian communities in the middle east which comprise Muslims and Jews who have converted to Christianity and live harmoniously together.  I believe turning to Jesus and sincerely following His teachings is the only feasible solution to conflicts such as this.  To adopt Christ's teaching of "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [Luke 6:27-28]" instead of "kill the infidels" or "an eye for an eye" would be the only way.
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SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #203 on: October 20, 2023, 10:10:21 AM »
There could be a solution to this.

I know of Christian communities in the middle east which comprise Muslims and Jews who have converted to Christianity and live harmoniously together.  I believe turning to Jesus and sincerely following His teachings is the only feasible solution to conflicts such as this.  To adopt Christ's teaching of "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [Luke 6:27-28]" instead of "kill the infidels" or "an eye for an eye" would be the only way.
That would not solve the continuing injustice of Israel's theft of Palestinian land, which is at the root of all this.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #204 on: October 20, 2023, 10:12:06 AM »
There could be a solution to this.

I know of Christian communities in the middle east which comprise Muslims and Jews who have converted to Christianity and live harmoniously together.  I believe turning to Jesus and sincerely following His teachings is the only feasible solution to conflicts such as this.  To adopt Christ's teaching of "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [Luke 6:27-28]" instead of "kill the infidels" or "an eye for an eye" would be the only way.
Is that like the Christians who carried out the Holocaust?

Aruntraveller

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #205 on: October 20, 2023, 10:19:08 AM »
There could be a solution to this.

I know of Christian communities in the middle east which comprise Muslims and Jews who have converted to Christianity and live harmoniously together.  I believe turning to Jesus and sincerely following His teachings is the only feasible solution to conflicts such as this.  To adopt Christ's teaching of "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [Luke 6:27-28]" instead of "kill the infidels" or "an eye for an eye" would be the only way.

Facile wishful thinking.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #206 on: October 20, 2023, 10:28:44 AM »
Facile wishful thinking.
The 'thinking' bit may be inaccurate

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #207 on: October 20, 2023, 10:31:14 AM »
Is the sarcasm really necessary?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #208 on: October 20, 2023, 10:33:35 AM »
Is the sarcasm really necessary?
Yes.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #209 on: October 20, 2023, 10:34:48 AM »
I'm not lying about you lying. If BHS used 'us', he's quite entitled too, since he was supporting NS. That makes two, and as I remember my English grammar, that makes a plural, and 'us' is entirely appropriate.

Irony meters explode all round.

You might make more friends (if that concerns you) if you occasionally conceded that you were wrong. You're trivialising a serious thread, and I'm a fool for rising to your bait, by effectively doing the same. See, I can admit my faults.
Or you're the fool who brought up the use of the word 'us' in the first place, which I then responded to. Yes my responses to you and BHS were facetious as your points were trivial.

Hopefully BHS's clarification in reply #190 has put your mind at rest that his (and therefore my) use of "us" is not claiming to speak for the forum . I was just using his terminology. And I have conceded when I think I am wrong on here, I just don't concede when you think I am wrong. So no I don't want to change anything about myself on here to make friends with you Dicky - I don't know you so why would I want to be friends with you? We're all just having a discussion. We don't need to be friends to have a discussion.

We'll agree to disagree about which posters are lying on this thread as it's more relevant to the issue of Hamas and Israel to identify when they are both lying, which they both seem to do frequently. Let's focus on those lies.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 11:42:30 AM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Spud

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #210 on: October 20, 2023, 10:45:27 AM »
That would not solve the continuing injustice of Israel's theft of Palestinian land, which is at the root of all this.
Are you talking about recent theft or that of 1948? Historical theft is usually come to terms with by later generations .
If the current theft stopped it would definitely help. I'd like to live to see Palestinian and Israeli children going to the same schools. The question is can Israel go into Gaza without the Arab nations getting involved? If not, hopefully Israel will realise and halt plans to do so. The guilty Hamas people (and Israelis who retaliated) can be brought to justice in time, or there could be amnesty. (Edit, once Biden is gone)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 10:48:50 AM by Spud »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #211 on: October 20, 2023, 12:17:19 PM »
Or you're the fool who brought up the use of the word 'us' in the first place, which I then responded to. Yes my responses to you and BHS were facetious as your points were trivial.

Hopefully BHS's clarification in reply #190 has put your mind at rest that his (and therefore my) use of "us" is not claiming to speak for the forum . I was just using his terminology. And I have conceded when I think I am wrong on here, I just don't concede when you think I am wrong. So no I don't want to change anything about myself on here to make friends with you Dicky - I don't know you so why would I want to be friends with you? We're all just having a discussion. We don't need to be friends to have a discussion.

We'll agree to disagree about which posters are lying on this thread as it's more relevant to the issue of Hamas and Israel to identify when they are both lying, which they both seem to do frequently. Let's focus on those lies.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #212 on: October 20, 2023, 12:49:36 PM »
Are you talking about recent theft or that of 1948? Historical theft is usually come to terms with by later generations .
If the current theft stopped it would definitely help. I'd like to live to see Palestinian and Israeli children going to the same schools. The question is can Israel go into Gaza without the Arab nations getting involved? If not, hopefully Israel will realise and halt plans to do so. The guilty Hamas people (and Israelis who retaliated) can be brought to justice in time, or there could be amnesty. (Edit, once Biden is gone)
I agree with you about Israeli and Palestinian children going to the same schools. Despite the Holocaust by the Europeans I see no reason why there needed to be a separate Jewish state in Palestine, since there hadn't been a Holocaust by the Arabs against the Jews - it was very much a European problem and it was the Europeans who couldn't be trusted to not carry out slaughter on an industrial scale, not the Arabs.

It's got beyond ridiculous that the idea of the existence of a Jewish state can't be discussed without some people howling about antisemitism in order to try to shut down legitimate debate.

I feel the same way and disagree with the partition of India and creating the state of Pakistan and Bangladesh instead of staying as one state and trying to accommodate minorities, which I think is the way to go. I don't see it as racist / Islamophobic to, for example, question Pakistan's right to exist as a separate state. Partition hasn't solved the problems of the Muslim minority in India and it certainly hasn't made things better for the Muslims in Pakistan. It doesn't seem like creating a homeland makes people more tolerant. Israelis have voted in hard-right leaders who have adopted increasingly hawkish policies to steal more land from the Palestinians - this to me is the root of the problem as the illegal occupation and lack of Palestinian autonomy and Israel's discriminatory apartheid laws against Palestinians are what drives the Palestinian militancy. https://forward.com/opinion/174890/confusing-israels-doves-and-hawks/

I never supported a separate homeland for the Tamils just because they have no separate state to preserve their ancient heritage, language and culture - the Tamils are part of India and Sri Lanka and need to learn to live as a minority in those 2 countries, despite the ethnic slaughter they have been subjected to. https://www.jurist.org/commentary/2021/02/pasha-kandiah-tamil-culture-sri-lanka/

I also wouldn't support the idea of encouraging Muslims to settle in southern Spain and then carve out part of it as a new Islamic state just because it used to be part of the Umayyad Empire in the 7th century AD. 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 12:54:10 PM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #213 on: October 20, 2023, 12:54:55 PM »
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 01:21:35 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #214 on: October 21, 2023, 09:30:04 AM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #215 on: October 21, 2023, 09:55:18 AM »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #216 on: October 22, 2023, 01:02:06 AM »
And bad news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344
It seems strange when I hear people justify the bombing of densely packed civilian areas in Gaza by saying "but what was Israel supposed to do after Hamas attacked them - they couldn't do nothing, they had to react and that's why it's ok to bomb unarmed civilians."

Because they seem to be saying that when Palestinians are faced with this IDF and Israeli settler violence, if a country would arm the Palestinians with missiles and planes, like the US and UK arm Israel, then it is perfectly reasonable if the Palestinians used the planes and missiles to bomb illegal settlements and to bomb cities in Israel, like Israel is bombing Gaza.

It's a very odd line of argument to me - killing unarmed civilians including women and children by bombing cities is reasonable but killing unarmed civilians including women and children by shooting them as Hamas did is not. But no one has yet provided a reasoned argument to justify why bombing civilians is more morally palatable than shooting civilians.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #217 on: October 22, 2023, 01:42:31 AM »
It seems strange when I hear people justify the bombing of densely packed civilian areas in Gaza by saying "but what was Israel supposed to do after Hamas attacked them - they couldn't do nothing, they had to react and that's why it's ok to bomb unarmed civilians."

Because they seem to be saying that when Palestinians are faced with this IDF and Israeli settler violence, if a country would arm the Palestinians with missiles and planes, like the US and UK arm Israel, then it is perfectly reasonable if the Palestinians used the planes and missiles to bomb illegal settlements and to bomb cities in Israel, like Israel is bombing Gaza.

It's a very odd line of argument to me - killing unarmed civilians including women and children by bombing cities is reasonable but killing unarmed civilians including women and children by shooting them as Hamas did is not. But no one has yet provided a reasoned argument to justify why bombing civilians is more morally palatable than shooting civilians.
I don't disagree with your sentiment but isn't the reasoning here that in a war carried out with bombs then civilians are not intended victims but are 'collateral' in that scary euphemism? Shooting a civilian, the intention is to kill the civilian.

 

Nearly Sane

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Spud

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #219 on: October 22, 2023, 09:34:35 AM »
I don't disagree with your sentiment but isn't the reasoning here that in a war carried out with bombs then civilians are not intended victims but are 'collateral' in that scary euphemism? Shooting a civilian, the intention is to kill the civilian.
Of course there is a difference between shooting civilians deliberately and accidentally when trying to hit the enemy. But at some point in the latter case the shooters must become aware that they have been killing innocent people, from which point onward if they continue, they become guilty of murder and there is no difference between them and the original enemy murderers.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #220 on: October 22, 2023, 12:05:36 PM »
I don't disagree with your sentiment but isn't the reasoning here that in a war carried out with bombs then civilians are not intended victims but are 'collateral' in that scary euphemism? Shooting a civilian, the intention is to kill the civilian.
Given the people in Israel's kibbutz/ settlements / communities are well-armed, and given women and young people serve in the IDF, militants who storm a settlement as part of their resistance against Israel's land theft and brutal repression would presumably need to mow civilians down with machine gunfire and grenades as they cannot see who is inside a building or distinguish between civilians who are trying to kill them and those who aren't.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/israeli-woman-25-hailed-as-hero-for-killing-terrorists-leading-security-team-at-kibbutz/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67089113

The militants don't have the ability to only pick out armed targets in the chaos of an attack on a settlement where people are trying to kill them so they would carry out indiscriminate gunfire and throw grenades, much like the rationale offered as to why unarmed civilians and children are killed by bombing campaigns. If people want to give the militants missiles and planes instead (and defensive technology to protect the planes from missiles trying to destroy them on the ground) I am sure the militants would be happy to use them to indiscriminately bomb armed and unarmed Israelis (like Israel is doing to the Palestinians) rather than just shoot them - you could kill a lot more people more quickly with missiles.

So that sounds to me like an artificial distinction by the people with the bombs to try to absolve themselves of moral responsibility. Hence lots of people don't appear to find the attempted distinction convincing.

Israel and their supporters can certainly try that line but the amount of anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian feeling around the world is possibly because people aren't fooled and can see the hypocrisy, although Israel tries to silence criticism by saying it is driven by antisemitism.

My impression is that most people don't despise Israel because they dislike Jews, they despise Israel because of its policies towards Palestinians from the time the Zionist project was put in motion over the objections of the Arabs being colonised, following European savagery to Jews. The same way people despised the Afrikaans leadership in South Africa during apartheid because of policies enacted and brutality towards a particular race.

At this point judging from the mass anti-Israel protests and waving of Palestinian flags, it seems like a lot of people would rather be called antisemitic than have a troubled conscience by not speaking up against Israel's brutal bombing of Palestinian civilians and its siege of Gaza.

If you are bombing in a civilian area and the militants are hidden then possibly it reminds people of the bombing of Vietnamese villages to kill Vietcong.

The US Air Force also claimed they had precision weapons and organised a bombing campaign of Northern Vietnam from 1965-1972. The aim was to destroy military and industrial targets in the north and hit strategic targets in Vietnamese cities. The north also had little industry to destroy. A great deal of the military infrastructure was underground or in caves. during the Vietnam war.

The US lost popular support and faced mass demonstrations against their conduct in Vietnam. This offensive resulted in an increase in volunteers for the Vietcong.

Israel's bombing campaign is just creating more support and recruitment for militants fighting Israel. Presumably that's what Israel wants because it will get more arms and funding from the US as a result.

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #221 on: October 22, 2023, 12:11:23 PM »
Given the people in Israel's kibbutz/ settlements / communities are well-armed, and given women and young people serve in the IDF, militants who storm a settlement as part of their resistance against Israel's land theft and brutal repression would presumably need to mow civilians down with machine gunfire and grenades as they cannot see who is inside a building or distinguish between civilians who are trying to kill them and those who aren't.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/israeli-woman-25-hailed-as-hero-for-killing-terrorists-leading-security-team-at-kibbutz/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67089113

The militants don't have the ability to only pick out armed targets in the chaos of an attack on a settlement where people are trying to kill them so they would carry out indiscriminate gunfire and throw grenades, much like the rationale offered as to why unarmed civilians and children are killed by bombing campaigns. If people want to give the militants missiles and planes instead (and defensive technology to protect the planes from missiles trying to destroy them on the ground) I am sure the militants would be happy to use them to indiscriminately bomb armed and unarmed Israelis (like Israel is doing to the Palestinians) rather than just shoot them - you could kill a lot more people more quickly with missiles.

So that sounds to me like an artificial delineation by the people with the bombs to try to absolve themselves of moral responsibility. Hence lots of people don't appear to find the attempted distinction convincing.

Israel and their supporters can certainly try that line but the amount of anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian feeling around the world is possibly because people aren't fooled and can see the hypocrisy, although Israel tries to silence criticism by saying it is driven by antisemitism.

My impression is that most people don't despise Israel because they dislike Jews, they despise Israel because of its policies towards Palestinians from the time the Zionist project was put in motion over the objections of the Arabs being colonised, following European savagery to Jews. The same way people despised the Afrikaans leadership in South Africa during apartheid because of policies enacted and brutality towards a particular race.

At this point judging from the mass anti-Israel protests and waving of Palestinian flags, it seems like a lot of people would rather be called antisemitic than have a troubled conscience by not speaking up against Israel's brutal bombing of Palestinian civilians and its siege of Gaza.

If you are bombing in a civilian area and the militants are hidden then possibly it reminds people of the bombing of Vietnamese villages to kill Vietcong.

The US Air Force also claimed they had precision weapons and organised a bombing campaign of Northern Vietnam from 1965-1972. The aim was to destroy military and industrial targets in the north and hit strategic targets in Vietnamese cities. The north also had little industry to destroy. A great deal of the military infrastructure was underground or in caves. during the Vietnam war.

The US lost popular support and faced mass demonstrations against their conduct in Vietnam. This offensive resulted in an increase in volunteers for the Vietcong.

Israel's bombing campaign is just creating more support and recruitment for militants fighting Israel. Presumably that's what Israel wants because it will get more arms and funding from the US as a result.
You seem to be suggesting that every one shot by 'militants' is in a some form of fire fight. We're back at you justifying murder of children again. Oddly your rhetoric reminds me of Netanyahu.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #222 on: October 22, 2023, 12:49:54 PM »
You seem to be suggesting that every one shot by 'militants' is in a some form of fire fight. We're back at you justifying murder of children again. Oddly your rhetoric reminds me of Netanyahu.
No we're not - we're back at your poor comprehension and bias.

What we're actually back at is me stating the flip side of Netanyahu's argument from the militant perspective to show how if Netanyahu's argument for indiscriminate violence against unarmed civilians works then so does the militants' argument for indiscriminate violence against unarmed civilians. Therefore I don't agree that the "what is Israel supposed to do" argument works.

How you got from that to me justifying murder of children is just you gaslighting. And it was you that stated that murdering children was ok on here, not me.

I deliberately used the word 'militant' because I didn't call the IDF or the settlers "terrorists" either. Interesting how you only picked up on the word 'militant' - it just shows your anti-Palestinian bias. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #223 on: October 22, 2023, 12:55:45 PM »
No we're not - we're back at your poor comprehension and bias.

What we're actually back at is me stating the flip side of Netanyahu's argument from the militant perspective to show how if Netanyahu's argument for indiscriminate violence against unarmed civilians works then so does the militants' argument for indiscriminate violence against unarmed civilians. Therefore I don't agree that the "what is Israel supposed to do" argument works.

How you got from that to me justifying murder of children is just you gaslighting. And it was you that stated that murdering children was ok on here, not me.

I deliberately used the word 'militant' because I didn't call the IDF or the settlers "terrorists" either. Interesting how you only picked up on the word 'militant' - it just shows your anti-Palestinian bias.
  I 'comprehended' your deliberate use of the word 'miliitant'. That you did that illustrates you justifying the murder of children. Thank you for higlighting that you are Bibi are two cheeks of the same arse.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #224 on: October 22, 2023, 01:12:07 PM »
  I 'comprehended' your deliberate use of the word 'miliitant'. That you did that illustrates you justifying the murder of children. Thank you for higlighting that you are Bibi are two cheeks of the same arse.
Again no it doesn't and you were the person who stated on here it was ok to kill children, not me.

Given I have been describing Hamas as terrorists, I deliberately used 'militant' here to see if someone would only pick up on the word 'militant' due to anti-Palestinian bias. Thank you for highlighting your anti-Palestinian bias by picking up on the word militant and demonstrating that you are Netanyahu's brother from another mother.

What I was demonstrating is that militants can mirror Netanyahu's argument "what is Israel supposed to do". If militants storm an armed settlement, indiscriminate shooting and grenade throwing to cause maximum chaos is an effective way of getting in and out while trying not to get killed - lessens militant casualties. Which is the same reason for aerial bombing by the Israelis - less Israeli casualties.

And as Yasmin Porat, an Israeli survivor from the recent attack on Kibbutz Be’eri near the Gaza boundary, said - Israeli forces killed their own civilians while combating Palestinian fighters.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi