Hamas attacks Israel.

[Alan Burns]

And I know many Muslims who would say that about Hamas. But since you don't think their position is valid, you cannot justify your own. And that's leaving aside the No True Scotsman fallacy you used.

You missed the point.
Hamas can claim to be following the written words in the Koran - "kill the infidels"
The teaching of Jesus in contrast  - "Love your enemies"

[Nearly Sane]

You missed the point.
Hamas can claim to be following the written words in the Koran - "kill the infidels"
The teaching of Jesus in contrast  - "Love your enemies"

'Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.'

The problem is Alan that it's other Christians that seem to disagree with you.

You've also ignored that you are using the No True Scotsman fallacy.

[Nearly Sane]

Labour Shadow Minister, Imran Hussein, jumps off Starmer's fence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67353019

[SteveH]

You've also ignored that you are using the No True Scotsman fallacy.

I don't think AB is guilty of the NTS fallacy, because he provided an objective standard by which someone can be judged to be, or not to be, a Christian: the teachings and actions of Christ.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think AB is guilty of the NTS fallacy, because he provided an objective standard by which someone can be judged to be, or not to be, a Christian: the teachings and actions of Christ.

That isn't objective. It may be almost the definition of subjective.

[Nearly Sane]

I have no high opinion of Sunak but this is staggeringly idiotic. This should be an operational mayter, which should be covered by the existing law, which does not change because it's Armistice Day.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67355227

[Spud]

'Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.'

The problem is Alan that it's other Christians that seem to disagree with you.

You've also ignored that you are using the No True Scotsman fallacy.

In context he is talking about division, in particular between members of the same family. The sword is a metaphor for that, it doesn't mean Jesus came to bring war.

[Nearly Sane]

In context he is talking about division, in particular between members of the same family. The sword is a metaphor for that, it doesn't mean Jesus came to bring war.

That's your interpretation. Just as some Muslims interpret the Quran differently from Alan Burns.

[Spud]

That's your interpretation. Just as some Muslims interpret the Quran differently from Alan Burns.

It's not hard to get the right interpretation in both cases.

[Nearly Sane]

It's not hard to get the right interpretation in both cases.

Which is what the Christians and the Muslims who disagree with you would say.

[SteveH]

It's not hard to get the right interpretation in both cases.

True - in the context of all Jesus's other reported sayings and actions, it is inconceivable that he was inciting anyone to violence.

[Nearly Sane]

True - in the context of all Jesus's other reported sayings and actions, it is inconceivable that he was inciting anyone to violence.

And yet many Christians conceive it

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting article from Jeremy Bowen


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67404110

[Nearly Sane]

13 years ago from the now Foreign Secretary. Be interesting as to what he says now 


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10778110

[Nearly Sane]

Jusqu'aux barričres, citoyens


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67417726

[Nearly Sane]

Don't worry, it's a lifestyle choice

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Extracted from "Voice for Justice"

We must not allow this
evil to spread

Between 1941 and 1945, in what was described by the Nazis as ‘the final solution to the Jewish problem’, the world witnessed the systematic slaughter of over 6,000,000 Jews – men, women and children, all condemned indiscriminately to what were at the time euphemistically called ‘labour camps’, but in reality were simply ‘death camps’.   The aim was literally to wipe out all Jews across Europe, for the simple reason that, to Hitler and his fellow Nazis, the Jewish race was subhuman and evil.
 
This was genocide on an unimaginable scale and in the aftermath of WW2, when the full horror of the Concentration Camps was exposed, the world vowed that such atrocities would never happen again.  On 3 September 1953, The European Convention on Human Rights, designed to protect fundamental human freedoms, such as the right to life, freedom of belief, and protection from discrimination, torture, the death penalty, etc, came into force (https://www.echr.coe.int/european-convention-on-human-rights).  It has remained in force for the last 70 years, as we have continued to celebrate and defend those freedoms – yet now, almost unbelievably, we are seeing that same spirit, aimed at the total annihilation of the Jews, once again manifesting on our streets.   
 
On 7 October, the world was sickened by news of the murderous, surprise attack launched by Hamas on Israel.   1,400 died in that raid, in the main civilians simply going about their daily lives, while some 230 were kidnapped and taken back to Gaza – seemingly, as bargaining chips designed to prevent retaliation.   The attack was a declaration of war by terrorists, whose stated aim is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth (https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas#:~:text=In%201988%2C%20Hamas%20published%20its,Islamic%
20society%20in%20historic%20Palestine). 
 
Since that time, as Israel has sought to counter the threat of Hamas and fighting has broken out in the Gaza strip and beyond, there has been global outcry on the part of those sympathetic to the Palestinian cause for an immediate cessation to hostilities.  By which it is meant, in practice, that Hamas will remain free to pursue its murderous campaign, but that Israel must not retaliate.
 
Let us, however, consider – from the start, Hamas have shown themselves prepared to sacrifice the Palestinian people in pursuit of their stated aim to destroy Israel.   To this end, they have hidden their weapons and infrastructure amongst the civilian population, ruthlessly exploiting men, women, children, and the sick, in order to deter retaliation.  Thus, rockets, used to rain down terror on Israel, have been cold-bloodedly hidden in schools and hospitals, so that if Israel dares try and eliminate them, it can be castigated for targeting civilians and breaking the rules of war.
 
Let us make no mistake, the goal of Islamist terror groups is not limited to Israel, but extends to the destruction of all Jewish people across the world.  And, with calls for jihad and intifada ringing out from the so-called ‘peace marches’, those poisonous tendrils are now taking root in our own streets.
 
In all conscience we cannot, and must not, permit this.
 
It is entirely right that Israel take appropriate and proportionate action to defend itself from threat, and those who are genuine in their calls for peace should, first and foremost, be condemning not them, but Hamas – for the good of both Jews and Palestinians alike.  For genuine peace, protestors should be calling for the condemnation and removal of all terrorists from Gaza and the Palestinian territories.  Because only then will the civilian population of both States be able to live in peace.   
 
Likewise, so-called pro-Palestinian demonstrations in the UK should, in the first instance, be condemning Hamas, not Israel – castigating the terrorists for their harsh and uncaring exploitation of those who cannot defend themselves.  As it is, calling for violent holy war callously disregards the ordinary citizens of Gaza and simply exposes the murderous hatred towards Israel, and indeed the West as a whole, that exists amongst some sections of society and that turns such demonstrations – as Suella Braverman has so bravely and accurately said – into hate marches, designed to foment violence and war (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/30/uk-ministers-cobra-meeting-terrorism-threat-israel-hamas-conflict-suella-braverman).
 
The suffering of the Palestinian people in Gaza is unquestionably appalling and all must want it to end.  But the war, deliberately provoked and engineered by Hamas, does not and cannot justify the rise in anti-Semitism now evident of our streets, and indeed across the whole world.  We are seeing the resurrection of an ancient evil, and the murderous spirit so evident in the death camps must not be allowed once again to take root in our streets.  England resisted such evil in WW2, and we must resist it now. 
 
There is compelling evidence that the campaign of protest against Israel in the UK is being manipulated by terror networks linked to Iran, shamelessly manipulating the truth in order to support their preferred narrative of Israeli oppression (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/iran-agents-uk-pro-palestine-protests-9f8pst6vf).

It is unquestionably this that has led to the horrifying rise in anti-semitic attacks over the last month, with hate crimes against Jews reportedly increasing by a staggering 1,350%.  The situation has indeed become so bad that many Jews in the UK are now afraid to venture out on the streets.
 
At every level, this is unacceptable.  The authorities must act without delay to stop all demonstrations that incite hatred against the Jews, and those that advocate and endorse such behaviour must be held accountable before the law.

Opposing policies of the Israeli government that are against international law and calling for a ceasefire and highlighting that Israel's actions are terrorism, which was the point of the protests, is not anti-semitism nor is it inciting hatred against the Jews. I came across quite a few Jewish people on the protest marches. Some of the Jewish people were calling out "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Some of the non-Jewish people on the protest marches did not support that sentiment and did not shout that slogan.

The minority of people who joined the protests and expressed hatred of all Jews, will be dealt with by the police.

The feelings of people in the UK whereby they are scared to venture out in the streets of the UK do not take priority over the much greater fear of the Palestinians that they are being bombed and "killed" by Israeli terrorism - if we're sticking to some of the media's semantics that bombing by a government "kills" civilians but bombing by militant or terrorist organisations "murders" civilians. People on the protest marches were, quite rightly IMO, more concerned about protesting against Israel bombing children in Gaza now, illegally occupying land for decades under international law and Israel taking Palestinian civilians hostage for decades than they were about hurt feelings in the UK.

In reporting the capture of Gilad Shalit on Israeli soil and his removal to the Gaza Strip, and Israel's response of detaining 60 Hamas members, half Palestinian West Bank parliamentarians, the former was said to have been kidnapped while the latter, seized from their beds in night raids and removed to Israeli prisons, were arrested.[16] Beinart's article suggested there was a pattern of Orwellian "linguistic fraud and a culture of euphemism" in the way AIPAC, for one, describes what takes place in the West Bank

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_coverage_of_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict

There are plenty of Israeli human rights organisations opposing the policies of their own government and advocating for the rights of Palestinian civilians who have been taken hostage by the Israeli government long before 7 October.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-04-04/israel-holding-1000-palestinians-without-charge

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You missed the point.
Hamas can claim to be following the written words in the Koran - "kill the infidels"
The teaching of Jesus in contrast  - "Love your enemies"

Does that mean that the teachings of Jesus are that Christians should love Hamas as opposed to trying to inflict violence on Hamas?

How does "loving Hamas" fit in with this bit below in your quote from Voice for Justice:

It is entirely right that Israel take appropriate and proportionate action to defend itself from threat, and those who are genuine in their calls for peace should, first and foremost, be condemning not them, but Hamas – for the good of both Jews and Palestinians alike.  For genuine peace, protestors should be calling for the condemnation and removal of all terrorists from Gaza and the Palestinian territories.  Because only then will the civilian population of both States be able to live in peace.

Seems like you are supporting fighting Hamas rather than loving Hamas?

Based on the evidence of Israeli aggression since 1948, it's not just Hamas that is the obstacle to peace. For the civilian populations of Israel and the Palestinian territories illegally occupied by Israel to live in peace, Israel needs to end its illegal occupation, settlement expansion, land grab and acts of terrorism against Palestinian civilians.

The Quran seems to express a legal or moral principle that humans can fight against oppression and kill their oppressors rather than loving their oppressors. For example it says:

“And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. (2:191).

But it's a bit more complex than cherry-picking Quranic verses as there is context to consider, as there is with any legal decisions about justifications for violence. https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/24/1/343/438602

And debate on moral principles seem even more complicated than legal problems - as shown by your "love thy enemy" followed by "It is entirely right that Israel take appropriate and proportionate action to defend itself from threat"

[Nearly Sane]

56 Labour MPs fell off the fence


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67432393

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Turkey’s Erdoğan labels Israel a terror state.

The Turkish leader had taken a more nuanced line immediately after Hamas launched attacks on southern Israel on October 7. About 1,200 people, mostly civilians, were killed and about 240 people taken hostage, according to Israeli officials.

But Erdogan’s rhetoric has escalated as the scale of Israel’s military response has grown.

Health officials in the Hamas-run territory said more than 11,300 people have been killed in Gaza, including more than 4,000 children.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/15/turkeys-erdogan-calls-israel-a-terror-state-criticises-the-west


Erdogan seems to have something in common with Ronald Reagan who shook hands with Mujahideen in the White House and made a statement on camera that “when we support the Afghan people we become caught up in and ennobled by their struggle for freedom. Isn’t that what America has always stood for and what we should stand for in 1986 and beyond?”

The US government doesn’t currently seem to be too caught up in and ennobled by the Palestinian people’s struggle for freedom….ah well - one person’s freedom fighter is someone else’s terrorist - I guess that applies to both Israel and Hamas.

ETA: The start of the paragraph I quoted above of Reagan’s speech:

Yet the most important battle involves not guns, but the human spirit -- the longing to be free and the duty to help the oppressed. If the free world were to turn its back on Afghanistan, then, in a sense, the free world would become less free and less humane.

[Nearly Sane]

So it would appear that Giles Coren on Times Radio said that the reason for the SNP's motion calling for an immediate ceasefire, which 56 Labour MPs voted for, is because the SNP has a huge anti semitic base.

And I had just been getting near the end of that day that never quite gets here of forgetting what a prick Coren is. Ah well...

[Nearly Sane]

Link to check how your MP voted on the SNP motion. I had, up till I looked at the graphic, managed to forget there is a Reclaim MP.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67438901

[SteveH]

Link to check how your MP voted on the SNP motion. I had, up till I looked at the graphic, managed to forget there is a Reclaim MP.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67438901

I was going to post that link as well, but you beat me to it. My Brexity twat of a Tory MP, Sir Mike Penning (he was knighted as a consolation prize when he was sacked as Armed Forces minister) predictably voted against. 

[Nearly Sane]

Jeremy Bowen on the import of Al Shifa. No matter what happens now people will only believe what confirms their view on this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67453105

[Nearly Sane]

Some good news on the hostages.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67478227