Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41941 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #350 on: January 08, 2024, 09:34:24 PM »
The title of this thread is a bit dated now, so may I suggest it be changed to "The War in Gaza", or something similar?
Moderator We've had a discussion, and feel that the original title reflects the circumstances at the time of the creation of the thread, and that everyone is aware what has changed and what the thread covers so do not see a need to change the title.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #351 on: January 09, 2024, 09:09:34 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #352 on: January 11, 2024, 03:53:48 PM »
Sth Africa presenting its case accusing Israel of genocide at the International Court of Justice

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67942983

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #353 on: January 12, 2024, 11:23:09 AM »
And Israel now presenting its defence.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67944903

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #354 on: January 17, 2024, 02:57:21 AM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #355 on: January 19, 2024, 04:13:35 AM »
Be interesting to see if this becomes a bigger issue in the US election


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68025945

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #356 on: January 20, 2024, 09:48:10 AM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #357 on: January 20, 2024, 09:51:24 AM »
This report of attacks on Damascus may have to be moved as it's not clear exactly which ongoing strife it's linked to but the Israel vs others seems most likely. Happy days!


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68040493

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #358 on: January 20, 2024, 04:07:02 PM »
This report of attacks on Damascus may have to be moved as it's not clear exactly which ongoing strife it's linked to but the Israel vs others seems most likely. Happy days!


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68040493

And it can remain here as it was Israel killing Iranian officials, and Syrian officials.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68040493

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #359 on: January 23, 2024, 07:32:10 PM »
« Last Edit: January 23, 2024, 08:39:09 PM by Nearly Sane »
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #360 on: January 26, 2024, 02:01:01 PM »
'ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza and allow in aid' but doesn't order a ceasefire.


https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-gaza-icj-ordered-allow-aid

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #361 on: January 26, 2024, 09:05:10 PM »

'Hamas attack: US pauses UNRWA funding over claims of staff involvement'

If this is true, it's goung to screw up UNRWA around the world, and puts the UN in an impossible position.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68104203

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #362 on: January 27, 2024, 01:55:07 PM »
'Hamas attack: US pauses UNRWA funding over claims of staff involvement'

If this is true, it's goung to screw up UNRWA around the world, and puts the UN in an impossible position.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68104203
UK pauses funding as well


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68104203
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 02:13:00 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #363 on: January 28, 2024, 02:06:55 AM »
UNRWA condemns aid halt.

The saddest thing here is that those suffering in Gaza are placed in a worse position and no real way out of this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68119268

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #364 on: January 30, 2024, 10:39:22 AM »

'UK considering recognising Palestine state, Lord Cameron says'

Interesting move, I suspect that this is one of those few rhings Cameron believes in. Will be interested to see how Sunak's take aligns or not with it.  And what the reaction of the Jewish community in the UK is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68137220

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #365 on: February 02, 2024, 02:16:14 PM »
'Western officials in protest over Israel Gaza policy' - not sure of this is just something that has happened before but on a smaller scale, though it seens not. It feels odd that this is the one that has triggered it, as opposed to say the 2nd Iraq War.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68177357
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 02:26:58 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #366 on: February 07, 2024, 03:08:52 PM »

Hamas responds to ceasefire offer with 135-day truce plan.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say Israel won't respond positively.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68225663

Gordon

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #367 on: February 10, 2024, 01:09:30 PM »
There are no words that make sense of this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #368 on: February 11, 2024, 04:37:59 AM »
Israel seems to have backed itself and the world into a corner here. If it storms Rafah then the many countries would need to take something they could say is action. If it doesn't it, then it will look as if it's not in control. Dangerous times

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68266335

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #369 on: February 12, 2024, 09:35:28 AM »
'Western officials in protest over Israel Gaza policy' - not sure of this is just something that has happened before but on a smaller scale, though it seens not. It feels odd that this is the one that has triggered it, as opposed to say the 2nd Iraq War.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68177357
As I and many others have observed before - the Hamas attack on 7th October did not take place in a vacuum. When political solutions seem impossible to people in Palestine because the policies of foreign governments are complicit in enabling the violent apartheid, racist, ethnic cleansing policies of an extreme nationalist Israeli government, there will be many oppressed people who will support violence to overthrow decades of that oppression against them. I'm surprised anyone is surprised that the recent Hamas terrorism happened. Israel's disproportionate response against unarmed Palestinian civilians, including a large proportion of children, will result in more support for terrorism against Israel / Zionists.

I am reminded of the moral dilemmas about the use of terrorism depicted in the recent film Oppenheimer - and they could apply to Hamas /the Palestinians as much as they could apply to Netanyahu's government/ the Israelis.

In the film, Oppenheimer views the atomic bomb he helped build as a terror weapon, as one of its main purposes was to terrify people rather than for tactical advantage (unless you consider terrifying people as a tactical advantage). When there were objections to using this level of indiscriminate bombing on the Japanese people, Oppenheimer's response is to say, “Look, we use this thing, and we’ll never have to use it again. Because it’s so horrible. This will be the end of the war. People will see how terrible these weapons are, and so they won’t use them again.”

Oppenheimer is shown as having pragmatic reasons to help build the bomb, because he knows the Nazis have an 18 month head-start on building their own bomb, and the Nazis are exterminating Jews (his people) in Europe. He decides that as terrible as the bomb is, it is necessary for the US to have it and use it first, before the Nazis acquire the capability of an Atomic bomb. Existentialist threats are used as a justification for abandoning moral qualms about indiscriminate bombing and killing of unarmed civilians, including women and children.

From the Palestinian perspective, the Palestinians have for decades been without a state and face a daily life of mass poverty, loss of homes, livelihoods and personal freedoms, subject to arbitrary IDF kidnappings in Gaza and the West Bank, held in Israeli prisons and denied personal autonomy. It doesn't surprise me that enduring this constant humiliation under Israeli military control feels to them like they face an existentialist threat to their ethnic identity, personal safety, freedom and dignity, and the response by some to this humiliation are acts of terrorism. Israel's feelings of facing an existentialist threat to their ethnic identity caused by the Nazi's Holocaust and the on-going opposition to an apartheid Jewish state that discriminates to favour Jews, are used to justify Israel's acts of terrorism and disproportionate violence , despite Israel having the superior military and economic advantage of billions of dollars of aid from the US and political support from the West over the decades.

Oppenheimer's friend, Nobel Prize-winning physicist Isidor Rabi, despite being a fellow Jew during the time of the Nazi persecution, refuses to help build an Atomic weapon as he says “The bombs fall on the just and the unjust alike,”

Israel's current strategy seems similar to Oppenheimer's terrorism argument for dropping the atomic bomb. Given the number of Palestinian civilians killed over the years due to Israel's disproportionate response to any threats, Israel is the bigger user of terrorism and Hamas terrorism seems small in comparison. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #370 on: February 12, 2024, 09:49:31 AM »
As I and many others have observed before - the Hamas attack on 7th October did not take place in a vacuum. When political solutions seem impossible to people in Palestine because the policies of foreign governments are complicit in enabling the violent apartheid, racist, ethnic cleansing policies of an extreme nationalist Israeli government, there will be many oppressed people who will support violence to overthrow decades of that oppression against them. I'm surprised anyone is surprised that the recent Hamas terrorism happened. Israel's disproportionate response against unarmed Palestinian civilians, including a large proportion of children, will result in more support for terrorism against Israel / Zionists.

I am reminded of the moral dilemmas about the use of terrorism depicted in the recent film Oppenheimer - and they could apply to Hamas /the Palestinians as much as they could apply to Netanyahu's government/ the Israelis.

In the film, Oppenheimer views the atomic bomb he helped build as a terror weapon, as one of its main purposes was to terrify people rather than for tactical advantage (unless you consider terrifying people as a tactical advantage). When there were objections to using this level of indiscriminate bombing on the Japanese people, Oppenheimer's response is to say, “Look, we use this thing, and we’ll never have to use it again. Because it’s so horrible. This will be the end of the war. People will see how terrible these weapons are, and so they won’t use them again.”

Oppenheimer is shown as having pragmatic reasons to help build the bomb, because he knows the Nazis have an 18 month head-start on building their own bomb, and the Nazis are exterminating Jews (his people) in Europe. He decides that as terrible as the bomb is, it is necessary for the US to have it and use it first, before the Nazis acquire the capability of an Atomic bomb. Existentialist threats are used as a justification for abandoning moral qualms about indiscriminate bombing and killing of unarmed civilians, including women and children.

From the Palestinian perspective, the Palestinians have for decades been without a state and face a daily life of mass poverty, loss of homes, livelihoods and personal freedoms, subject to arbitrary IDF kidnappings in Gaza and the West Bank, held in Israeli prisons and denied personal autonomy. It doesn't surprise me that enduring this constant humiliation under Israeli military control feels to them like they face an existentialist threat to their ethnic identity, personal safety, freedom and dignity, and the response by some to this humiliation are acts of terrorism. Israel's feelings of facing an existentialist threat to their ethnic identity caused by the Nazi's Holocaust and the on-going opposition to an apartheid Jewish state that discriminates to favour Jews, are used to justify Israel's acts of terrorism and disproportionate violence , despite Israel having the superior military and economic advantage of billions of dollars of aid from the US and political support from the West over the decades.

Oppenheimer's friend, Nobel Prize-winning physicist Isidor Rabi, despite being a fellow Jew during the time of the Nazi persecution, refuses to help build an Atomic weapon as he says “The bombs fall on the just and the unjust alike,”

Israel's current strategy seems similar to Oppenheimer's terrorism argument for dropping the atomic bomb. Given the number of Palestinian civilians killed over the years due to Israel's disproportionate response to any threats, Israel is the bigger user of terrorism and Hamas terrorism seems small in comparison.
Is anyone surprised by the Hamas murders other thsn in terms of the scale?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #371 on: February 12, 2024, 03:11:51 PM »
Is anyone surprised by the Hamas murders other thsn in terms of the scale?
Presumably everyone is wondering why the sensor-equipped, 20-foot-tall fence, with hundreds of cameras and automated machine gun fire when sensors are tripped didn't prevent Hamas entering Israel or allow the IDF to react more quickly to the Hamas breach of the "Iron Wall" in multiple locations.

Given the history of the conflict and the numbers murdered in the past and Israel's continued ruthlessness in exploiting people and connections, I am not surprised by the Israeli government's or Hamas' propensity to murder civilians - especially the scale of Israel's or Hamas' appetite for murder. The Israeli government has demonstrated its values in the past, values which certain Western government allies claim are shared values, and which are also shared by various Middle East leaders, and therefore it is not surprising that Israel's values required an extremely violent and brutal response towards civilians for any challenges against Israel's military occupation or continued colonial expansion. 

Another shared value with Israel seems to be corruption and tax breaks for a favoured group (in Israel's case the tax breaks are only for Jews). Israel's Zionist colonial expansion project was boosted by a 2008 tax amendment (nicknamed “the Milchan law” by the Israeli press at the time because the billionaire Hollywood movie producer and secret arms dealer Arnon Milchan was the first well-known billionaire to take advantage of it) that turned Israel into a tax haven for the wealthy and the corrupt.

The tax amendment encourages aliyah (immigration to Israel) by Jews living abroad, by granting a complete exemption from paying taxes on income earned abroad, and even on reporting that income, for a period of 10 years to olim hadashim (new immigrants) as well as toshavim hozrim vatikim (returning residents who have lived abroad for at least 10 years) and other eligible new residents. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/25/hollywood-producer-testifies-at-netanyahu-corruption-trial

With the many financial incentives on offer to Jews, it might require quite a lot of violence to dissuade Jews from immigrating and colonising Palestinian land.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #372 on: February 14, 2024, 02:51:01 PM »

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #373 on: February 20, 2024, 03:33:39 PM »
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #374 on: February 21, 2024, 03:37:27 PM »
Hoyle has been an inept Speaker, this is just more of the same

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68357080
« Last Edit: February 21, 2024, 05:04:01 PM by Nearly Sane »