Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41838 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #425 on: March 08, 2024, 09:00:41 AM »
That may be what Hamas means, but it isn't necessarily what the phrase means, as the Accountant says above. You are committing the intentional fallacy - the assumption that what the author intended is determinative of meaning. In fact, texts mean what they say, which may be very different from what the author intended.
https://literariness.org/2016/03/17/intentional-fallacy/
Texts don't mean anything bereft of those creating them or those interpreting them.  The idea that meaning exists pure removed from subjective usage is laughable.

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #426 on: March 08, 2024, 09:06:04 AM »
Texts don't mean anything bereft of those creating them or those interpreting them.  The idea that meaning exists pure removed from subjective usage is laughable.
I didn't say that. What I said was that texts are autonomous, their meaning not limited to the author's intentions. Google "Barth death of the author".
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #427 on: March 08, 2024, 09:12:14 AM »
I didn't say that. What I said was that texts are autonomous, their meaning not limited to the author's intentions. Google "Barth death of the author".
You said 'texts mean what they say' - that entirely removes the subjective intention of the author, and the interpreter. And since you have just killed the author, you telling me what you meant is piquantly ironic.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 09:27:45 AM by Nearly Sane »

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #428 on: March 11, 2024, 02:51:49 PM »
.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #429 on: March 15, 2024, 11:20:09 PM »
Charlotte Church on the 'From the river to the sea'. Lots of stuff I agree with but we're back at interpretation, and the use of it by Hamas isn't dealt with.


https://charlotte-church.ghost.io/

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #430 on: March 16, 2024, 07:00:32 AM »
Charlotte Church on the 'From the river to the sea'. Lots of stuff I agree with but we're back at interpretation, and the use of it by Hamas isn't dealt with.


https://charlotte-church.ghost.io/
Intelligent and well-written piece by Charlotte Church.

I think even Hamas use of the phrase “from the river to the sea” has varied interpretations too. It’s in their 2017 revised Charter where they also recognise the pre-1967 borders for a Palestinian state. This is in line with the PLO use of the phrase, long before Hamas came into existence.

Despite attempts by critics and the Zionist lobby to twist the narrative and portray its use as antisemitism in order to silence criticism of Zionism, its interpretation presumably depends on who is using the phrase and if the person is armed and acting aggressively then it could be seen as threatening - see NY Times article extract below:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/politics/river-to-the-sea-israel-gaza-palestinians.html

The slogan does not appear in Hamas’s founding covenant from 1988, which pledges “to confront the Zionist invasion and defeat it,” not just in historic Palestinian territory, but worldwide. It is featured, however, in a section of the group’s revised platform from 2017. In the same paragraph, Hamas indicates it could accept a Palestinian state along the borders that were in place before the 1967 war — the same borders considered under the Oslo Accords.

Still, Hamas’s firm commitment not to recognize Israel under any conditions has solidified the impression to critics that whoever repeats the slogan is participating in a rallying cry for the destruction of Israel — and by extension, of the Jewish people as well.

“The phrase ‘Palestine will be free from the river to the sea’ suggests a vision of the future without a Jewish state, but it does not answer the question of what the role of Jews would be,” said Peter Beinart, a professor at the City University of New York. He added that the meaning of the phrase, however, “depends on the context.”

“If it’s coming from an armed Hamas member, then yes, I would feel threatened,” said Professor Beinart, who is Jewish. “If it is coming from someone who I know has a vision of equality and mutual liberation, then no, I would not feel threatened.”

Many Palestinians have been dismayed over the outrage about the slogan, which they regard as the result of an orchestrated effort by groups like the A.D.L. to impugn the motives of Palestinians as a means of undermining their cause of statehood and silencing them.

“It is perfectly possible for both people to be free between the river and the sea,” Ahmad Khalidi, a researcher at Oxford University who worked on Arab-Israeli peace negotiations during the 1990s, said of Palestinians and Jews. “Is ‘free’ necessarily in itself genocidal? I think any reasonable person would say no. Does it preclude the fact that the Jewish population in the area between the sea and the river cannot also be free? I think any reasonable person would also say no.”
« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 10:01:35 AM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #431 on: March 16, 2024, 07:32:39 AM »
Of course that's its meaning.

Obviously, I don't think that Charlotte Church believed it, but then a lot of people really don't understand the realities of Middle Eastern politics.
You don’t seem to understand the realities of Middle Eastern politics - if you did you would not be incorrectly claiming that Israel is a secular state where everyone is treated equally rather than a Jewish state, which discriminates against Palestinians in violation of international laws.

 https://twitter.com/BonsaiSky/status/1763188725431873726?s=20

Maybe this video will educate you - Rich Siegel, Jewish resident of Teaneck, NJ, USA at a recent Teaneck Township Council meeting explaining why Israel’s housing policy and Israeli events held in US synagogues to promote a Jews-only real estate purchases is in violation of US domestic law (1964 Civil Rights Act and 1968 Fair Housing Act) and international law.

“I think that Zionism is Jewish supremacy and Jewish entitlement and I think that this event is an expression of that,” he told the Guardian. “It’s obscene to have an Israeli real estate event while Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/11/new-jersey-israel-palestine-protest-real-estate
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #432 on: March 16, 2024, 07:48:22 AM »
I think ignoring that anti semitism has often been based on the idea of a Jewish conspiracy which would allow them to be characterised as 'the powers that be' is at best stupidity.
The “powers that be” doesn’t sound like a Jewish conspiracy to many people - I think it’s stupidity to keep reaching for the “antisemitism” card and reading “Jewish conspiracy” into every criticism made about spin doctoring and smears.  Pretending there aren’t privileged people with power who try to silence dissent through media manipulation is naive/ disingenuous, so good for Charlotte Church for calling it out without worrying about attempts to portray it as antisemitism.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #433 on: March 16, 2024, 08:07:20 AM »
Welcome legal outcome on freedom to criticise Zionism:

https://www.irwinmitchell.com/news-and-insights/expert-comment/post/102j1vy/anti-zionist-beliefs-are-protected-under-the-equality-act-2010


Anti-Zionist beliefs are protected under the Equality Act 2010

In Miller v University of Bristol, a tribunal held that an academic’s anti-Zionist views were a “protected belief” under the Equality Act 2010 and his dismissal for expressing those protected beliefs was too severe and therefore unfair and discriminatory.We consider what other employers can learn from this case.

What are Dr Miller’s beliefs? Dr Miller was employed as a professor of political sociology. His academic work had been both political and controversial.

Dr Miller believes Zionism to be “an ideology that asserts that a state for Jewish people ought to be established and maintained in the territory that formerly comprised the British Mandate of Palestine”. It is his view that this is “inherently racist, imperialist and colonial” and “offensive to human dignity” and he opposes it on this basis. He was clear that his anti-Zionist beliefs were not opposition to or antipathy towards Jews or Judaism.

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #434 on: March 22, 2024, 10:19:29 AM »
With the US now calling for an immediate ceasefire, it looks like the UK government may eventually get there to. That they, and indeed the Labour Party have whined about the use of the words up till now when talking about a cessation in the war is pathetic.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/21/us-calls-for-immediate-ceasefire-in-gaza-with-draft-un-resolution

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #435 on: March 22, 2024, 01:54:07 PM »
Russia and China block the resolution


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68631712

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #436 on: March 25, 2024, 07:19:09 PM »
Israel cancels White House visit


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68658973

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #437 on: March 26, 2024, 10:52:45 PM »
'Gaza war surgeon elected rector of University of Glasgow' in a landslide for Glasgow University Rectorial election. The sitting rector, Rita Rae came fourth.


https://archive.fo/vuI7P

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #438 on: March 29, 2024, 08:52:17 PM »
Eurovision continues to be involved in the periphery of comment. 'Queers for Palestine' upset at Olly Alexander.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68693181

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #439 on: March 31, 2024, 11:02:34 AM »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #440 on: March 31, 2024, 12:24:03 PM »
Eurovision continues to be involved in the periphery of comment. 'Queers for Palestine' upset at Olly Alexander.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68693181

As are the "Turkey for Christmas".

OK I know it's way more nuanced than that but QFP grinds my gears.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #441 on: April 01, 2024, 07:53:43 AM »
Moderator Announcement Thread is locked for review, see Mod thread on Board being reported to Police Scotland under Hate Crime Act.


https://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=21405.msg882565#msg882565


Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #442 on: April 01, 2024, 08:37:25 PM »
Moderator Announcement Thread is locked for review, see Mod thread on Board being reported to Police Scotland under Hate Crime Act.


https://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=21405.msg882565#msg882565
As per thread, this now appears to have been a joke. Thread unlocked

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #443 on: April 01, 2024, 08:44:51 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #444 on: April 01, 2024, 09:33:08 PM »
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 10:10:53 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #445 on: April 02, 2024, 09:05:08 AM »
"Israel Gaza: Charity suspends Gaza aid work after staff killed"




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68710515

Aruntraveller

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #446 on: April 03, 2024, 10:48:05 AM »
"Israel Gaza: Charity suspends Gaza aid work after staff killed"




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68710515

This is not a new phenomenon. Over 200 Palestinian aid workers have been killed since October. It is well past time that we recognise that these "miscalculations" are happening far too often. If I had a suspicious nature I would say that they are pre-meditated, but as I don't, and as I know Netanyahu doesn't have the possibility of going to jail on his mind, then I rest easy that he isn't using the war for his own personal reasons.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #447 on: April 03, 2024, 01:02:39 PM »
This is not a new phenomenon. Over 200 Palestinian aid workers have been killed since October. It is well past time that we recognise that these "miscalculations" are happening far too often. If I had a suspicious nature I would say that they are pre-meditated, but as I don't, and as I know Netanyahu doesn't have the possibility of going to jail on his mind, then I rest easy that he isn't using the war for his own personal reasons.
I doubt this one was premeditated precisely because of the stushie it has caused.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #448 on: April 04, 2024, 01:39:40 AM »
"World Central Kitchen founder José Andrés says Israel targeted staff in Gaza 'car by car'"

Struggling to see the political 'sensible' line that Biden can walk with this. Leaving aside Trump's legal issues, it looks more and more like other events may lead to Trump getting back in.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68727828

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #449 on: April 04, 2024, 08:23:08 AM »
If the details here are correct, then it's going to be hugely difficult for any 'explanation' from the IDF and Israeli govt to sound at all convincing. Not helped when you had the Israeli rep on Channel 4 news on Tuesday lying about an aid agency where agency workers had been killed in an earlier incident.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68714128