Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41857 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #450 on: April 04, 2024, 10:47:46 AM »
Lot of pressure in Sunak to stop arm sales to Israel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68729302

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #452 on: April 05, 2024, 03:44:15 PM »
Watch out for the person with a bag! I suppose it has to be remembered that British police killed a man carrying a table leg once.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68742572

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #453 on: April 06, 2024, 11:03:01 AM »
Ex PM and Foreign Secretary says stuff International law.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68748251

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #454 on: April 06, 2024, 10:56:45 PM »
Protests against Netanyahu in Israel.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68754109

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #455 on: April 08, 2024, 12:49:52 PM »

"Germany faces genocide case over Israel weapon sales" at the International Court of Justice.

Interesting case, and one that I suspect will be being watched carefully in the US.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68759146

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #456 on: April 09, 2024, 01:24:24 PM »
While I might question the motives of the Henry Jackson Society, there is no doubt that there are some disturbing figures in the survey. A lot of it might be mirrored on a different subject by those who might express themselves worried that many UK Muslims do not accept the 'mainstream media' and politicians' narratives on this. There is a widespread breakdown in trust of what is presented but when it supports one's own views, it's seen as almost being in the mainstream narrative despite of the best efforts to keep it out.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/just-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel/ar-BB1lbvTO

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #457 on: April 09, 2024, 05:44:23 PM »
While I might question the motives of the Henry Jackson Society, there is no doubt that there are some disturbing figures in the survey. A lot of it might be mirrored on a different subject by those who might express themselves worried that many UK Muslims do not accept the 'mainstream media' and politicians' narratives on this. There is a widespread breakdown in trust of what is presented but when it supports one's own views, it's seen as almost being in the mainstream narrative despite of the best efforts to keep it out.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/just-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel/ar-BB1lbvTO
I would be interested to know what they actually asked in the survey.

I think there are a lot of people who are sceptical of the selective reporting of the mainstream media, both the inherent biases in reporting and the agenda of various media outlets that skew their reporting.

A lot of young people seem to base their information on social media videos, so not really much regulation of reporting with videos uploaded by individuals.

The distrust could be based on all the stories flying around initially in the media about 40 beheaded Israeli babies and massacres of Israeli children on 7th October.  https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-releases-horrifying-images-of-infants-murdered-by-hamas/

It later emerged that 2 babies were murdered in the 7th October attack. https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-kids-under-10-25-people-over-80-up-to-date-breakdown-of-oct-7-victims-we-know-about/

People, including Biden and other officials, were repeating these false stories planted in the media by Israeli first responders to the October 7th attacks. Many people were inclined to believe these stories because of their existing prejudices against Muslims / Palestinians.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

Young people watching videos on social media that exposed those lies about the babies would naturally want to see evidence that rapes occurred before they take it as fact.

I assumed there would have been some rapes because there has been evidence in other conflicts around the world that violent men with guns, whether they are IDF or US soldiers or militants, have used rape as a weapon of war. So I was not expecting Hamas to be any better or any worse than other soldiers in other countries with regard to raping women. However, I heard a few young people on the protest marches say the reports about rape are from Israeli first responders or captured Hamas militants who may have been tortured by the IDF to confess to raping women. They did not seem inclined to trust these reports because of the fake news about beheaded babies, and wanted independent evidence for the rape allegations such as forensic reports before they believed them.

Presumably the false reports about many beheaded babies were intended to dehumanise the Palestinian population and lay the groundwork for justifying revenge attacks by the IDF, such as murdering Palestinian babies in the IDF's collective punishment bombing campaigns against Palestinian civilians. Hence, there could be a similar motive for spreading stories about widespread or systematic rape by Hamas, despite denials by Hamas of this being the case. I guess we'll never know until there is independent evidence.

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #458 on: April 09, 2024, 07:06:07 PM »
I would be interested to know what they actually asked in the survey.

I think there are a lot of people who are sceptical of the selective reporting of the mainstream media, both the inherent biases in reporting and the agenda of various media outlets that skew their reporting.

A lot of young people seem to base their information on social media videos, so not really much regulation of reporting with videos uploaded by individuals.

The distrust could be based on all the stories flying around initially in the media about 40 beheaded Israeli babies and massacres of Israeli children on 7th October.  https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-office-releases-horrifying-images-of-infants-murdered-by-hamas/

It later emerged that 2 babies were murdered in the 7th October attack. https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-kids-under-10-25-people-over-80-up-to-date-breakdown-of-oct-7-victims-we-know-about/

People, including Biden and other officials, were repeating these false stories planted in the media by Israeli first responders to the October 7th attacks. Many people were inclined to believe these stories because of their existing prejudices against Muslims / Palestinians.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

Young people watching videos on social media that exposed those lies about the babies would naturally want to see evidence that rapes occurred before they take it as fact.

I assumed there would have been some rapes because there has been evidence in other conflicts around the world that violent men with guns, whether they are IDF or US soldiers or militants, have used rape as a weapon of war. So I was not expecting Hamas to be any better or any worse than other soldiers in other countries with regard to raping women. However, I heard a few young people on the protest marches say the reports about rape are from Israeli first responders or captured Hamas militants who may have been tortured by the IDF to confess to raping women. They did not seem inclined to trust these reports because of the fake news about beheaded babies, and wanted independent evidence for the rape allegations such as forensic reports before they believed them.

Presumably the false reports about many beheaded babies were intended to dehumanise the Palestinian population and lay the groundwork for justifying revenge attacks by the IDF, such as murdering Palestinian babies in the IDF's collective punishment bombing campaigns against Palestinian civilians. Hence, there could be a similar motive for spreading stories about widespread or systematic rape by Hamas, despite denials by Hamas of this being the case. I guess we'll never know until there is independent evidence.
That there are reasons to be careful about narratives is only sensible. What we have though is a widespread belief that any mainstream narrative is wrong except when it agrees with your preconceptions, from people on different sides of different issues.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #459 on: April 10, 2024, 02:02:12 AM »
That there are reasons to be careful about narratives is only sensible. What we have though is a widespread belief that any mainstream narrative is wrong except when it agrees with your preconceptions, from people on different sides of different issues.
Sure, we saw that in the Brexit debate too.

Not sure if it's a new phenomenon or has been going on for centuries. Were people polarised in a similar way in the past about mainstream narratives on various topics e.g. in the US during the Vietnam war or in debates about the abolition of slavery or civil rights? Didn't people only believe the mainstream narrative if it agreed with their preconceptions in those debates?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #460 on: April 10, 2024, 08:44:13 AM »
Sure, we saw that in the Brexit debate too.

Not sure if it's a new phenomenon or has been going on for centuries. Were people polarised in a similar way in the past about mainstream narratives on various topics e.g. in the US during the Vietnam war or in debates about the abolition of slavery or civil rights? Didn't people only believe the mainstream narrative if it agreed with their preconceptions in those debates?
I don't think that people finding things to support their own views from available 'evidence' is new phenomenon rather I'd suggest that where there tended to be an establishment view that was accepted by a majority of people on the majority of issues, the lack of trust is more widespread. That we've had PMs and cabinet ministers talking about being stymied by the establishment is indicative of this.

Added to that, the availability of information and disinformation has expanded exponentially, and while that should make us more careful about evidence, because of how we seem to work it makes us less so.

When Yeats wrote in The Second Coming:
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity",
it was talking about the general phenomenon here but I think the world we live in has reduced doubt so much more because it has become what we fear most.

I am constantly aware of warnings through history about the concern of change, and novelty, and how so many times they have been not sufficiently justified but not all of thise warnings have been completely wrong, and we have changed little, if at all, while the pace of change is ever faster.




To go back to Yeats:

"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"






The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #461 on: April 11, 2024, 12:09:35 PM »
I don't think that people finding things to support their own views from available 'evidence' is new phenomenon rather I'd suggest that where there tended to be an establishment view that was accepted by a majority of people on the majority of issues, the lack of trust is more widespread. That we've had PMs and cabinet ministers talking about being stymied by the establishment is indicative of this.

Added to that, the availability of information and disinformation has expanded exponentially, and while that should make us more careful about evidence, because of how we seem to work it makes us less so.

When Yeats wrote in The Second Coming:
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity",
it was talking about the general phenomenon here but I think the world we live in has reduced doubt so much more because it has become what we fear most.

I am constantly aware of warnings through history about the concern of change, and novelty, and how so many times they have been not sufficiently justified but not all of thise warnings have been completely wrong, and we have changed little, if at all, while the pace of change is ever faster.




To go back to Yeats:

"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
I agree with a lot of what you say. However, being realistic I would say that diversity occurs because it is useful - some people with  passionate  intensity for abstract ideals are necessary to counter-balance other people with passionate intensity for an opposing view or to counter-balance people with a passionate intensity for money or power or personal-self interest or to counter-balance dispassionate ruthlessness or despotism etc 

Human emotional and intellectual diversity being a product of nature / nurture means there will always be some people with passionate intensity for something that others passionately disagree with. Hence I think civilisation requires for example both religious and atheists to keep each other in check and mitigate the dangers of human tunnel vision and group think, and help the continuation of the species.

I would say widespread distrust of the establishment seems a normal by-product of periods of political and cultural change, hence the point I made about the increasing distrust of the establishment in the US during the Vietnam war. The culture in the US was changing due to the Civil Rights movements of the increasingly politicised black community, and young people were becoming less inclined to accept the establishment narrative that shipped them off to fight a conflict in Vietnam, especially where black people were disproportionately represented in the army as cannon fodder, fighting for a country where they were treated as second class citizens. The establishment attempted to fight back by labelling dissenters as Communists.

I see some similarities today in attempts to label as Hamas supporters or terrorist sympathisers those who mistrust the establishment's narrative on the Zionist-Palestine issue. Being against the Zionist position does not mean an automatic endorsement of Hamas terrorism. I may agree with some of what Hamas is saying, some of what the Zionists are saying, and also disagree with both groups on their positions on various aspects of this conflict. If the establishment narrative is that Muslims need to denounce everything that Hamas is saying, that's just not going to happen as I myself don't see any of these issues in terms of black and white or good guys vs bad guys.

I personally don't accept the establishment narrative that it is morally ok to turn a blind eye to the killing of thousands of civilians to get back about 150 hostages. I think that is a morally bankrupt position to hold. I distrust the establishment narrative and the narrative of Israel's supporters who say Hamas and not Israel are responsible for the thousands of Palestinian civilian deaths.

On a more general point, I think increasing interaction between differing cultures lead to cultural change followed by changes in leadership. Leaders will have to incorporate some of the ideas expressing distrust of the establishment in order to get sufficient political support to maintain their positions of leadership.

The Mongol Empire in the 13th and 14th centuries was one of the largest land empires in history. Initially ruled by Mongol tribes following traditional Mongolian shamanism and tribal customs under Genghis Khan, the empire eventually adopted Islam as the main state religion during the early 14th century. As more trade occurred between the Mongols, Persians and Arabs, Mongol leaders and soldiers gradually converted to Islam for practical reasons relating to commerce and alliances. Mahmud Ghazan for example, leader of the Mongol empire in the 13th century, converted to Islam after significant interaction between the Mongols and Muslims. One motive behind Mahmud Ghazan's conversion to Islam was a desire to attract the support of those Mongols who had already converted to Islam in order to overthrow a rival.

 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #462 on: April 11, 2024, 12:29:13 PM »
I agree with a lot of what you say. However, being realistic I would say that diversity occurs because it is useful - some people with  passionate  intensity for abstract ideals are necessary to counter-balance other people with passionate intensity for an opposing view or to counter-balance people with a passionate intensity for money or power or personal-self interest or to counter-balance dispassionate ruthlessness or despotism etc 

Human emotional and intellectual diversity being a product of nature / nurture means there will always be some people with passionate intensity for something that others passionately disagree with. Hence I think civilisation requires for example both religious and atheists to keep each other in check and mitigate the dangers of human tunnel vision and group think, and help the continuation of the species.

I would say widespread distrust of the establishment seems a normal by-product of periods of political and cultural change, hence the point I made about the increasing distrust of the establishment in the US during the Vietnam war. The culture in the US was changing due to the Civil Rights movements of the increasingly politicised black community, and young people were becoming less inclined to accept the establishment narrative that shipped them off to fight a conflict in Vietnam, especially where black people were disproportionately represented in the army as cannon fodder, fighting for a country where they were treated as second class citizens. The establishment attempted to fight back by labelling dissenters as Communists.

I see some similarities today in attempts to label as Hamas supporters or terrorist sympathisers those who mistrust the establishment's narrative on the Zionist-Palestine issue. Being against the Zionist position does not mean an automatic endorsement of Hamas terrorism. I may agree with some of what Hamas is saying, some of what the Zionists are saying, and also disagree with both groups on their positions on various aspects of this conflict. If the establishment narrative is that Muslims need to denounce everything that Hamas is saying, that's just not going to happen as I myself don't see any of these issues in terms of black and white or good guys vs bad guys.

I personally don't accept the establishment narrative that it is morally ok to turn a blind eye to the killing of thousands of civilians to get back about 150 hostages. I think that is a morally bankrupt position to hold. I distrust the establishment narrative and the narrative of Israel's supporters who say Hamas and not Israel are responsible for the thousands of Palestinian civilian deaths.

On a more general point, I think increasing interaction between differing cultures lead to cultural change followed by changes in leadership. Leaders will have to incorporate some of the ideas expressing distrust of the establishment in order to get sufficient political support to maintain their positions of leadership.

The Mongol Empire in the 13th and 14th centuries was one of the largest land empires in history. Initially ruled by Mongol tribes following traditional Mongolian shamanism and tribal customs under Genghis Khan, the empire eventually adopted Islam as the main state religion during the early 14th century. As more trade occurred between the Mongols, Persians and Arabs, Mongol leaders and soldiers gradually converted to Islam for practical reasons relating to commerce and alliances. Mahmud Ghazan for example, leader of the Mongol empire in the 13th century, converted to Islam after significant interaction between the Mongols and Muslims. One motive behind Mahmud Ghazan's conversion to Islam was a desire to attract the support of those Mongols who had already converted to Islam in order to overthrow a rival.
I don't disagree with much of that. I think though in general in the past there has been tension between 2 views, one of which is the mainstream narrative. I think now we have something where the main proponents of sides, and this doesn't just apply to the war in Gaza are both distrustful of mainstream narratives, and therefore there is no centre. Again I am wary of saying this is not mirrored in some examples in past times of such conflict but I think it would be foolish not to consider that communication has been so radically changed that we're not in Kansas anymore.


And yes, I agree that a lot of conflict happens because of traits that are evolved to be beneficial in other circumstances. It's why I think that those who talk about the possibility of removing religion from humanity if you had a magic band to do so would create something that is not humanity, and may well be dreadful. The point though is that human evolution is glacial, technology evolution is lightning.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #463 on: April 12, 2024, 04:44:13 PM »
I don't disagree with much of that. I think though in general in the past there has been tension between 2 views, one of which is the mainstream narrative. I think now we have something where the main proponents of sides, and this doesn't just apply to the war in Gaza are both distrustful of mainstream narratives, and therefore there is no centre.
Do you mean Western European mainstream narrative or the UK government's narrative? The UK has disagreed with its European allies with regard to intervening in various 20th and 21st century middle-east conflicts. Ireland seems to have a very different mainstream narrative from the UK government regarding the Israel-Palestine issue. London mainstream may be different from the rest of Britain.

Based on history, including recent history, the mainstream narrative where there are cultural conflicts, conflicts about access to new economic markets, sharing of resources etc seems to be self-interest is good.

Quote
Again I am wary of saying this is not mirrored in some examples in past times of such conflict but I think it would be foolish not to consider that communication has been so radically changed that we're not in Kansas anymore.


And yes, I agree that a lot of conflict happens because of traits that are evolved to be beneficial in other circumstances. It's why I think that those who talk about the possibility of removing religion from humanity if you had a magic band to do so would create something that is not humanity, and may well be dreadful. The point though is that human evolution is glacial, technology evolution is lightning.
I would agree that technology enables more varied narratives, wider dissemination of narratives. I also find it hard to identify what is considered the mainstream narrative these days, especially since Brexit, as there is huge variety in narratives and the narratives change almost daily depending on what new information became available and has gone viral. This is evident in the clashes over trans ideology, Brexit, and in terms of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

e.g. Hamas beheaded 40 Israeli babies / murdered scores of babies so Hamas is evil and wants to exterminate the Jews = 1 narrative until it is discredited. The Iraq WMD narrative was discredited after Western powers had finished bombing Iraq. Iraq being involved in 9/11 narrative was also discredited. Or the criticism of Zionism is antisemitism narrative has been discredited. Once those stories and narratives have been discredited, not surprisingly many people distrust narratives that go against their pre-existing world views. 

Without objective morality, the narratives in any individual country will be based on practical realities such as self-interest and national interests, and what can i get away with spinning, “A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”

Maybe the current mainstream narrative is that nations caught out in a lie don't have to worry about international disapproval so long as they have sufficient fire power and economic power backing them.....

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #464 on: April 13, 2024, 10:47:24 PM »
And Iran attacks Israel, or retaliates for being attacked. Take your pick.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68810053
« Last Edit: April 14, 2024, 08:12:46 AM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #465 on: April 18, 2024, 08:07:10 AM »
Qatar questioning its role as mediator.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68835645

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #466 on: April 19, 2024, 11:20:52 AM »

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #467 on: April 19, 2024, 12:31:00 PM »
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 12:34:11 PM by SteveH »
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #468 on: April 20, 2024, 02:07:13 PM »
Being 'openly Jewish' in a built up area?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19j892neo

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #469 on: April 20, 2024, 05:13:43 PM »
Being 'openly Jewish' in a built up area?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19j892neo
Reminds me of the old joke about people of the tinted persuasion being arrested for "driving whilst black"
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #470 on: April 20, 2024, 05:30:18 PM »
Reminds me of the old joke about people of the tinted persuasion being arrested for "driving whilst black"

It was this I was thinking of

https://youtu.be/teSPN8sVbFU?si=0c4EMbMquPMN54TS

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #471 on: April 21, 2024, 08:36:25 AM »
Updated report. Apparently because the police officer was a dick it  means the person he was a dick to is now right on everything and the Met Commissioner must go for allowing countless anti semitic hate crimes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19j892neo
« Last Edit: April 22, 2024, 06:42:58 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #472 on: April 22, 2024, 11:34:36 AM »

"Israel military intelligence chief quits over 7 October"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68873227

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #473 on: April 22, 2024, 01:36:16 PM »
Updated report. Apparently because the police officer was a sick it  means the person he was a dick to is now right on everything and the Met Commissioner must go for allowing countless anti semitic hate crimes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsarticles/c4n19j892neo
So the Met Commissioner is a bit anti semitic but not too anti semitic according to the PM.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68872398

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #474 on: April 22, 2024, 06:11:00 PM »
As usual there are multiple versions of what happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/22/initial-story-about-openly-jewish-incident-not-full-picture-says-ex-senior-met-officer

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104?trk=public_post_comment-text

Pro-Israel supporters lied about Hamas beheading 40 Israeli babies. That lie was repeated many times over across the media. As usual the media did not give equal publicity to exposing this as a lie and revising the figure to 2 dead babies.

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi