Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41764 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #475 on: April 22, 2024, 06:19:09 PM »
Updated report. Apparently because the police officer was a sick it  means the person he was a dick to is now right on everything and the Met Commissioner must go for allowing countless anti semitic hate crimes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsarticles/c4n19j892neo
When I click on it, it says page not found.

There was an elderly Jewish lady who came on LBC yesterday during a discussion about whether the Met Commissioner should resign. She said media coverage of Gideon Falter's stunt was distracting attention from the real issue, which is the attempt by Israel to eradicate the Palestinians either by bombing them or by stealing more of their land. She felt the eradication of Palestinian civilians was a far more pressing issue than whether Gideon Falter can walk against the crowd protesting against Israel's acts of genocide. She said she was born during WW2 and the Gaza experience reminds her of the Jewish experience in the Warsaw ghetto.

She said the media should stop falling for Gideon Falter's distraction technique and said she is part of a 500 strong Jewish block who regularly attend the anti-genocide marches against Israel. She said openly Jewish people on the march are treated very respectfully. She also said no one can claim to speak for the Jewish community as the community is split between those who support Israel's illegal occupation and slaughter of civilians and those who are against it.

I would add that I was at the first protest outside the Israeli embassy on 10 Oct 2023, and witnessed a lone man draped in an Israeli flag walking through the middle of the sea of protestors holding Palestinian flags. He was probably trying to provoke something to generate bad publicity against the protestors but no one touched him or reacted aggressively towards him - he got some odd looks. The police did not intervene to stop him walking through the crowd. So am not sure what the policeman saw Gideon Falter do that made him think he could provoke the crowd to violence.

There have been a small crowd of counter-protestors with Israeli flags at recent marches. It feels like rival football supporters chanting at a football match, but the marches have not turned violent.

At a march last week, a pro-Israel supporter had left the crowd of counter-demonstrators who were held back at a barrier and he had come forward to the 2nd barrier at the edge of the Palestinian march. He had a video camera and was filming while arguing with some young pro- Palestinian supporters. He was asking them to condemn 7 October and they were asking him to condemn the Nakba and he said he did not know what the Nakba was. When they explained it to him he said he did not care about the Nakba, and Israel did what it had to do to acquire and defend its land, and it has a right to kill people (which presumably includes unarmed villagers) to defend its land. Very odd colonial mindset. Anyway, the police were standing around and did not get involved.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #476 on: April 22, 2024, 06:21:38 PM »
So the Met Commissioner is a bit anti semitic but not too anti semitic according to the PM.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68872398
When I first heard this story I assumed the person in question was an ordinary jewish member of the public. But that doesn't appear to be the case - he is the head of the Campaign Against Antisemitism. Now I'm certainly not claiming that the Met acted correctly, but it seems implausible that he didn't deliberately decide to go to where the protest was taking place and deliberately ask to cross the road. He was clearly making a point and I think the Met have to consider the likelihood of a breach of the peace should a person with known counter-views end up within a large protest.

As an analogy I imagine they would have taken similar action had George Galloway just happen to turn up at a pro-Israel rally and ask to cross its path, or Had Tommy Robinson turned up at an anti-racism rally and ask to cross its path.

So people can legitimately protest, others can completely legitimately protest in an alternative direction, but the police sometimes may need to keep those groups apart for the sake of everyone's safety. So the Met were probably right in their broad approach - that it was best for them to usher this individual away from the protest, but how they did it was appalling.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #477 on: April 22, 2024, 06:47:09 PM »
When I first heard this story I assumed the person in question was an ordinary jewish member of the public. But that doesn't appear to be the case - he is the head of the Campaign Against Antisemitism. Now I'm certainly not claiming that the Met acted correctly, but it seems implausible that he didn't deliberately decide to go to where the protest was taking place and deliberately ask to cross the road. He was clearly making a point and I think the Met have to consider the likelihood of a breach of the peace should a person with known counter-views end up within a large protest.

As an analogy I imagine they would have taken similar action had George Galloway just happen to turn up at a pro-Israel rally and ask to cross its path, or Had Tommy Robinson turned up at an anti-racism rally and ask to cross its path.

So people can legitimately protest, others can completely legitimately protest in an alternative direction, but the police sometimes may need to keep those groups apart for the sake of everyone's safety. So the Met were probably right in their broad approach - that it was best for them to usher this individual away from the protest, but how they did it was appalling.
Achievement unlocked by Falter. And why Sunak is trying to play this as a general problem, and tying it to general questions about the policing of the protests rather than going too close to the specific. I suspect we'll see something from Tice and Braverman in the next couple of days about how Sunak is too soft on the Met.

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #478 on: April 22, 2024, 07:43:45 PM »
I agree with the Met Commissioner in this report (below). It was a tactless choice of words, but no more. Mr Falter was deliberately being provocative by wearing his kippah alongside the march.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/22/met-police-chief-praises-professional-conduct-officer-antisemitism-row
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #479 on: April 22, 2024, 07:45:05 PM »
Achievement unlocked by Falter. And why Sunak is trying to play this as a general problem, and tying it to general questions about the policing of the protests rather than going too close to the specific. I suspect we'll see something from Tice and Braverman in the next couple of days about how Sunak is too soft on the Met.
I see that further, and more complete, footage has been release which is likely to see the story develop ... and not necessarily in favour of Falter.

The main police officer involved seems to be almost endlessly patient against clear intransigence from Falter. He keeps offering to take Falter where he wants to go, but Falter refuses and only wants to take a route straight through the protest.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #480 on: April 22, 2024, 07:49:04 PM »
I agree with the Met Commissioner in this report (below). It was a tactless choice of words, but no more. Mr Falter was deliberately being provocative by wearing his kippah alongside the march.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/22/met-police-chief-praises-professional-conduct-officer-antisemitism-row
I don't agree that wearing a kipper is provocative. It was Falter's behaviour that appears to be provocative - from the comments from the police it appears that he'd already entered the protest and walked deliberately in the opposite direction. And then he was demanding to get where he wanted to go directly through the protest, despite being offered (many, many times) an alternative route.

I would never assume that I can just cross a route whenever I wanted, even if that route is being used for a protest ... or a coronation ... or even a marathon. In all of those cases I think the police may reasonably conclude that an alternative route should be found.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #481 on: April 22, 2024, 07:50:58 PM »
I agree with the Met Commissioner in this report (below). It was a tactless choice of words, but no more. Mr Falter was deliberately being provocative by wearing his kippah alongside the march.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/22/met-police-chief-praises-professional-conduct-officer-antisemitism-row
You seem just to be saying he shouldn't be obviously Jewish.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #482 on: April 22, 2024, 07:52:37 PM »
I see that further, and more complete, footage has been release which is likely to see the story develop ... and not necessarily in favour of Falter.

The main police officer involved seems to be almost endlessly patient against clear intransigence from Falter. He keeps offering to take Falter where he wants to go, but Falter refuses and only wants to take a route straight through the protest.
And yet achievement unlocked because here we are talking about it, and the PM has talked about the Met Commissioner as a result.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2024, 08:08:05 PM by Nearly Sane »

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #483 on: April 22, 2024, 07:55:28 PM »
You seem just to be saying he shouldn't be obviously Jewish.
In that particular situation, no, he shouldn't.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #484 on: April 22, 2024, 07:57:40 PM »
In that particular situation, no, he shouldn't.
Why not?

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #485 on: April 22, 2024, 08:47:59 PM »
Why not?
Because it was being deliberately provocative.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #486 on: April 22, 2024, 08:54:05 PM »
Because it was being deliberately provocative.
If being obviously Jewish is provocative the problem is those being provoked.

Surely being deliberately provocative is something you support?

My wife's been told she was offending people and threatened with violence for wearing TShirts saying 'Vote for Scottish Independence', 'Women:Adult Human Female' 'I l❤️ JK'. - should she have been stopped?


« Last Edit: April 22, 2024, 08:58:41 PM by Nearly Sane »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #487 on: April 23, 2024, 10:48:28 PM »
And yet achievement unlocked because here we are talking about it, and the PM has talked about the Met Commissioner as a result.
At least the Met Commissioner is talking about the "fakery" and spin of those trying to undermine the police - so it's good the message is getting out there to combat some of the pressure put on institutions and individuals by the Zionist lobby.

The commissioner of the Metropolitan police has praised the “professional” conduct of the sergeant who stopped an antisemitism campaigner at a pro-Palestinian march and warned that officers at other protests had been “set up” by activists using “fakery” to undermine the force.

This isn't surprising news to many people who have been observing the "fakery" and manipulation tactics of the pro-Zionist lobbies over the years - the lobby regularly uses the anti-Semitism card and the Holocaust to try to shut down criticism of their politics. If that does not work they use their financial power.

Thankfully the Zionist lobby are being publicly called out for this manipulation by their fellow Jews. And after Israel's recent dramatic escalation of the murders and kidnappings that they have been routinely conducting for the past 75 years in the illegally occupied/ annexed/ blockaded Palestinian territories, it seems the anti-Semitism card is becoming less and less effective, and more people are starting to question what other lies Israel has been spinning about the Palestinians since the creation of the state of Israel.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #488 on: April 24, 2024, 09:52:16 AM »
If being obviously Jewish is provocative the problem is those being provoked.
It is all about time and place, and the job of the police is to do what they can to avoid tensions escalating. Where you have protest and counter protest you will have tensions that can easily spill over. The safest approach is to allow both the protest and the counter protest, but to keep them apart. That is what the police were attempting to do, as Falter's demand to be able to walk right across the path of the main protest was clearly a protest in its own right.

It is very difficult to police what is happening right in the midst of a protest, hence previous discussions as to why the police don't wade into the middle of a protest if there is an anti-semitic banner of anti-semitic chanting (by the way the point is the same for other protests). Wading into the protest risks major escalation and potential violent response. So the police will only do this if absolutely necessary.

So back to Falter - quite reasonably the police wanted to ensure that while he had a perfect right to counter-protest, he should not be allowed to himself wade into the centre of the main protest. This seems completely sensible to me, albeit the language and justification by the particular officer was cack-handed. Although when you actually see the 13 minute altercation the police officers seemed to show pretty remarkable patience and restraint.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #489 on: April 24, 2024, 10:05:08 AM »
My wife's been told she was offending people and threatened with violence for wearing TShirts saying 'Vote for Scottish Independence', 'Women:Adult Human Female' 'I l❤️ JK'. - should she have been stopped?
I don't really think there is an equivalence with the wearing of a kippah. Falter will probably wear a kippah as a matter of course, routinely in all sorts of situations. The wearing of one isn't making some kind of political point.

That isn't the same as wearing a 'political' statement - whether 'Vote for Scottish Independence', 'Women:Adult Human Female' 'I l❤️ JK' (albeit the latter might just mean you like Happy Potter books!!!) or 'Transwomen are women - get over it', 'England for the English' or  'I l❤️ Laurence Fox' (albeit the latter might just mean you like Lewis!!!). And whether or not the wearing of political slogans may be considered provocative will depend on context, but certainly wearing a 'Women:Adult Human Female' might be considered provocative in the context of a pro-trans rights rally. Likewise wearing 'Transwomen are women - get over it' might be considered provocative in the context of an anti-trans rights rally.

Now the notion that the wearing of a slogan might be considered to be provocative certainly doesn't mean it should be banned - far from it. But the police might, quite reasonably, consider that it would be sensible to keep the person wearing the slogan apart from those rallying for an alternative position to minimise the likelihood of a breach of the peace arising.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 10:12:08 AM by ProfessorDavey »

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #490 on: April 24, 2024, 10:41:18 AM »
I've been on a few pro=Palestine demos in London, and all of them were noisy but peaceful, and some had sizeable self-identified Jewish contingents from 'Jews for Justice for Palestinians' and other Jewish pro-Palestinian groups.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #491 on: April 24, 2024, 11:06:49 AM »
I've been on a few pro=Palestine demos in London, and all of them were noisy but peaceful, and some had sizeable self-identified Jewish contingents from 'Jews for Justice for Palestinians' and other Jewish pro-Palestinian groups.
That's true of course, but that isn't really what I am talking about. Falter was clearly engaging in a counter protest, albeit having rather disingenuously claimed that he just 'stumbled' across the demo.

So had he been a pro-palestinian jewish person then of course the police wouldn't have had any issue with allowing him to join the demo. But he wasn't and I wouldn't have been surprised if the police knew exactly who he was as he wasn't Joe Public but the leading member of an anti-semitism organisation. And in that context it seems perfectly reasonable that the police wouldn't allow him to join the demo as this could potentially create the risk of breach of the peace, but to keep him (and other counter protesters) separate from the main rally, while sill allowing them to counter protest but at a distance. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #492 on: April 24, 2024, 11:18:31 AM »
That's true of course, but that isn't really what I am talking about. Falter was clearly engaging in a counter protest, albeit having rather disingenuously claimed that he just 'stumbled' across the demo.

So had he been a pro-palestinian jewish person then of course the police wouldn't have had any issue with allowing him to join the demo. But he wasn't and I wouldn't have been surprised if the police knew exactly who he was as he wasn't Joe Public but the leading member of an anti-semitism organisation. And in that context it seems perfectly reasonable that the police wouldn't allow him to join the demo as this could potentially create the risk of breach of the peace, but to keep him (and other counter protesters) separate from the main rally, while sill allowing them to counter protest but at a distance. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Yes, I know - I just chucked it in as a vaguely relevant anecdote.
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SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #493 on: April 27, 2024, 06:42:16 AM »
Jonathan Freedland on unhelpful extremist "allies" of the Palestinian cause. He might have mentioned similar "allies" of Israel, particularly in the nuttier parts of evangelical and charismatic Christianity.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/jews-palestinians-peace-gaza-narcissist-allies
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #494 on: April 27, 2024, 08:34:26 AM »
Jonathan Freedland on unhelpful extremist "allies" of the Palestinian cause. He might have mentioned similar "allies" of Israel, particularly in the nuttier parts of evangelical and charismatic Christianity.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/jews-palestinians-peace-gaza-narcissist-allies
He's making a personal point, I think, from mainly being sympathetic to the Palestinians, and isn't reporting. He makes clear that there are dodgy allies of Israel.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #495 on: April 29, 2024, 09:18:31 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #496 on: April 30, 2024, 10:48:27 AM »
'US says Israeli army units violated human rights' - but apparently it's all OK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68925495

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #497 on: April 30, 2024, 04:26:56 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #498 on: May 01, 2024, 10:02:38 AM »
"'Horrific violence' on LA campus after police clear New York protest".

I wonder if this merits its own thread, fits on the US election one, or on here.


https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-68924299

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #499 on: May 02, 2024, 11:39:33 AM »
"Israel accused of possible war crime over killing of West Bank boy"

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cw07wgrwzywo