Hamas attacks Israel.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Can't find it my heart to mourn him but let's hope it doesn't escalate further


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c4ng7g74xppt

Israel has a history of going rogue and assassinating people to send a message or to try to intimidate to terrorise - this is often their preferred method of dealing with people they deem to be problematic rather than practising and improving their abilities to use statesmanship or diplomacy or engage in solutions that don't break the law. They also have a history of assassinating / murdering the wrong people and innocents while still trying to portray themselves as victims that deserve sympathy from other countries.

That's the problem with vigilante actions and terrorism - those who engage in it, including the Israeli government, get the wrong people as often as or more often than they get the "right" people. The idea that the Israeli government are not a bunch of murderous thugs just like Hamas is laughable - there is nothing to choose between them and it is only bias and prejudice that enables some people to view Israel's government more sympathetically than Hamas.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-israels-leaders-use-targeted-killings-to-try-to-stop-history/

[Nearly Sane]

Israel has a history of going rogue and assassinating people to send a message or to try to intimidate to terrorise - this is often their preferred method of dealing with people they deem to be problematic rather than practising and improving their abilities to use statesmanship or diplomacy or engage in solutions that don't break the law. They also have a history of assassinating / murdering the wrong people and innocents while still trying to portray themselves as victims that deserve sympathy from other countries.

That's the problem with vigilante actions and terrorism - those who engage in it, including the Israeli government, get the wrong people as often as or more often than they get the "right" people. The idea that the Israeli government are not a bunch of murderous thugs just like Hamas is laughable - there is nothing to choose between them and it is only bias and prejudice that enables some people to view Israel's government more sympathetically than Hamas.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-israels-leaders-use-targeted-killings-to-try-to-stop-history/

Just to clarify, do you have any intention to imply Haniyeh is either not the intended victim, or is an innocent?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Just to clarify, do you have any intention to imply Haniyeh is either not the intended victim, or is an innocent?

No - Israel having a history of assassinating innocent victims was my second point. Assassination, terrorism, kidnapping, hostage-taking and torture are hallmarks of the Israeli government and Hamas. Haniyeh like Netanyahu is not an innocent and no doubt both leaders were/ are aware that their own assassination comes with the territory of how they choose to carry out their jobs. 

[Nearly Sane]

No - Israel having a history of assassinating innocent victims was my second point. Assassination, terrorism, kidnapping, hostage-taking and torture are hallmarks of the Israeli government and Hamas. Haniyeh like Netanyahu is not an innocent and no doubt both leaders were/ are aware that their own assassination comes with the territory of how they choose to carry out their jobs.

Yes, I see Israel have said they are going to assasinate Yahya Sinwar, the new leader of Hamas. And it isn't called out.

[Nearly Sane]

"UK military on standby for possible Lebanon evacuation" - doesn't seem to be getting at all calmer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgj2nw4lgro

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes, I see Israel have said they are going to assasinate Yahya Sinwar, the new leader of Hamas. And it isn't called out.

Israel presumably assassinated Haniyeh because he was too moderate and pragmatic - it suits Israel's current government to have someone more extreme to head Hamas - no prizes for working out why.   

[Nearly Sane]

Israel presumably assassinated Haniyeh because he was too moderate and pragmatic - it suits Israel's current government to have someone more extreme to head Hamas - no prizes for working out why.

Sometimes a cigar is just an everyday assignation attempt. If you're the leader of Hamas for the murders last year, you're extreme enough for any purposes.

Political assassinations are not confined to Israel, and in some ways are not as bad, on a scale of evil to dear fuck what have you just done, as attacks that murder innocents.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Sometimes a cigar is just an everyday assignation attempt. If you're the leader of Hamas for the murders last year, you're extreme enough for any purposes.

Political assassinations are not confined to Israel, and in some ways are not as bad, on a scale of evil to dear fuck what have you just done, as attacks that murder innocents.

Are you suggesting it is morally or legally not as bad to assassinate Netanyahu for his murder of innocents and that Netanyahu is extreme enough for any purposes? Hamas would agree with you - as would the Israeli government about Hamas leaders being extreme enough for any purposes.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Sometimes a cigar is just an everyday assignation attempt. If you're the leader of Hamas for the murders last year, you're extreme enough for any purposes.

Political assassinations are not confined to Israel, and in some ways are not as bad, on a scale of evil to dear fuck what have you just done, as attacks that murder innocents.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/assassinating-hamas-leaders-scores-points-but-is-unlikely-to-produce-victory/

The deaths of Messrs. Haniyeh and Deif were not the first time Israel killed top Hamas leaders within a matter of weeks. In 2004, Israel assassinated Hamas co-founders Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi in attacks less than a month apart.

A quadriplegic, Mr. Yassin was killed less than three months after he proposed a long-term truce with Israel “if a Palestinian state is established in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.” Mr. Al-Rantisi was assassinated less than three months after he made a similar offer.

Hamas pragmatists have since 2017 privately argued that they could renounce the armed struggle and acknowledge Israel’s existence rather than its right to exist at the end of peace negotiations not as a pre-condition for talks.

The pragmatists pointed to the failure of the PLO’s 1993 and 1994 Oslo Accords with Israel to produce a Palestinian state despite the PLO playing its trump cards of ending the armed struggle and recognizing Israel at the outset of the talks rather than once the terms of an agreement had been negotiated.

The pragmatists, like many Palestinians, argue that the PLO strategy produced a situation in which Palestinians are worse off than they were before the Oslo Accords, highlighted by the rise of Mr. Netanyahu’s government coalition, the most ultra-nationalist and ultra-conservative in Israel’s history, that rejects the notion of Palestinian statehood and claims all historic Palestine.

Seems like there is a good reason why Israel is accused of genocide and why the International Criminal Court had sufficient evidence of war crimes to issue arrest warrants for Mr. Haniyeh, alongside two other Hamas leaders and two Israelis, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.

[Nearly Sane]

Are you suggesting it is morally or legally not as bad to assassinate Netanyahu for his murder of innocents and that Netanyahu is extreme enough for any purposes? Hamas would agree with you - as would the Israeli government about Hamas leaders being extreme enough for any purposes.

In relative terms, the assassination of someone who has organised and ordered the murder of innocents does not seem as bad to me as the murder of those innocents. I'm not really that bothered if Hamas or the Israeli govt agree on that aspect of moral calculation because they would commit both while I would commit neither.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

In relative terms, the assassination of someone who has organised and ordered the murder of innocents does not seem as bad to me as the murder of those innocents. I'm not really that bothered if Hamas or the Israeli govt agree on that aspect of moral calculation because they would commit both while I would commit neither.

I think we would commit neither because we are not leaders of organisations or governments or countries under attack, nor are we dealing with being under attack for decades. Organising and ordering the murder of innocents appears to go with the territory of leading a country which has armed forces and is protecting its interests or leading a militant organisation that grew out of a population under attack from a government.

[Nearly Sane]

I think we would commit neither because we are not leaders of organisations or governments or countries under attack, nor are we dealing with being under attack for decades. Organising and ordering the murder of innocents appears to go with the territory of leading a country which has armed forces and is protecting its interests or leading a militant organisation that grew out of a population under attack from a government.

it's obviously impossible to know what we would do in completely different circumstances so not sure what the point of the hypothetical is. It remains that I think the assassination of someone who has ordered and/or organised the murder of innocents is less bad than the murder of those innocents, and that while I can make that judgement  it does not mean that I am approving of the assassination.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

it's obviously impossible to know what we would do in completely different circumstances so not sure what the point of the hypothetical is.

I was just clarifying that we would not order the murder of innocents because of our nature/ nurture - different environment usually leads to different choices - no such thing as free will - our choices are determined - basic stuff like that, which we have been putting forward on other threads.

[Nearly Sane]

I was just clarifying that we would not order the murder of innocents because of our nature/ nurture - different environment usually leads to different choices - no such thing as free will - our choices are determined - basic stuff like that, which we have been putting forward on other threads.

And as I have also put forward in those threads frequently, I think on a day to day basis we have no choice but to talk as if we have a form of free will. As pointed out, I can only really say what the confederacy of dunces normally covered by the perpendicular pronoun has agreed upon.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It remains that I think the assassination of someone who has ordered and/or organised the murder of innocents is less bad than the murder of those innocents, and that while I can make that judgement  it does not mean that I am approving of the assassination.

Does it really matter whether you approve or don't approve?

If you were operating in the same circumstances as Hamas or Netanyahu you would do things such as order murders of innocents, not because you relish or enjoy doing so but because it was a pragmatic option designed to meet certain political objectives. It goes with the job of leading a country or armed forces or militants that sometimes you are required by the circumstances to consider the lives of innocents as expendable, weighed against political objectives.

[Nearly Sane]

Does it really matter whether you approve or don't approve?

If you were operating in the same circumstances as Hamas or Netanyahu you would do things such as order murders of innocents, not because you relish or enjoy doing so but because it was a pragmatic option designed to meet certain political objectives. It goes with the job of leading a country or armed forces or militants that sometimes you are required by the circumstances to consider the lives of innocents as expendable, weighed against political objectives.

Then your disapproval of the Israeli govt in this thread doesn't really matter, so you would appear to be saying those posts are pointless.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Then your disapproval of the Israeli govt n this thread doesn't really matter, so you would appear to be saying they are pointless.

My disapproval of the Israeli government and Hamas leadership in this thread was just me expressing that I thought they were both the same in the way they have been conducting themselves in the conflict - though obviously the Israeli government have killed far more innocents than Hamas has, so looking at objective facts like numbers rather than likes and dislikes based on anti-Arab or anti-Muslim prejudice, the Israeli government are worse than Hamas.

I can understand that both sides are products of their nature/ nurture and due to the circumstances they find themselves in they make choices accordingly. My approval / disapproval is pointless to the extent that if I was in their circumstances I recognise the likelihood that I would make similar choices. As would others commenting here.

[Nearly Sane]

My disapproval of the Israeli government and Hamas leadership in this thread was just me expressing that I thought they were both the same in the way they have been conducting themselves in the conflict - though obviously the Israeli government have killed far more innocents than Hamas has, so looking at objective facts like numbers rather than likes and dislikes based on anti-Arab or anti-Muslim prejudice, the Israeli government are worse than Hamas.

I can understand that both sides are products of their nature/ nurture and due to the circumstances they find themselves in they make choices accordingly. My approval / disapproval is pointless to the extent that if I was in their circumstances I recognise the likelihood that I would make similar choices. As would others commenting here.

And therefore my comments about what I would do have exactly the same validity as your disapproval.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And therefore my comments about what I would do have exactly the same validity as your disapproval.

Not sure what you mean by validity.

My input into this thread started because there seemed to be a narrative developing in the media that the actions of Hamas on 7 October were worse than the actions of the government of Israel over the past few decades and I introduced some information to show how the actions of the government of Israel were as bad as Hamas, and since 7 October were considerably worse than Hamas. 

My comments on this thread expressing disapproval of the actions of Hamas and the Israeli government by calling both their actions illegal were not an indication of what I would do but a comparison of what they were both doing to innocent civilians.

I just found your comment that you would not murder innocents, unlike the leaders of Hamas and Israel, odd since it is neither analysing the situation nor is it logical - I was disagreeing with you that you would not order the murder of innocents nor order the assassination of those who had murdered innocents - if you were in their circumstances you probably would murder innocent civilians because your choices would be determined by your circumstances/ nature/ nurture.

[Nearly Sane]

Not sure what you mean by validity.

My input into this thread started because there seemed to be a narrative developing in the media that the actions of Hamas on 7 October were worse than the actions of the government of Israel over the past few decades and I introduced some information to show how the actions of the government of Israel were as bad as Hamas, and since 7 October were considerably worse than Hamas. 

My comments on this thread expressing disapproval of the actions of Hamas and the Israeli government by calling both their actions illegal were not an indication of what I would do but a comparison of what they were both doing to innocent civilians.

I just found your comment that you would not murder innocents, unlike the leaders of Hamas and Israel, odd since it is neither analysing the situation nor is it logical - I was disagreeing with you that you would not order the murder of innocents nor order the assassination of those who had murdered innocents - if you were in their circumstances you probably would murder innocent civilians because your choices would be determined by your circumstances/ nature/ nurture.

Then your disapproval of the Isreali govt actions is, by your own argument, worthless.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Then your disapproval of the Isreali govt actions is, by your own argument, worthless.

Sure - that's why there was a lot more in my posts than just expressing disapproval of the actions of the leaders of Israel and Hamas. My posts were mostly an analysis of the way in which the circumstances that Hamas and Israelis found themselves in led to the actions of both sides.

I called you out on your worthless post because it only consisted of you trying to portray yourself as someone who would not murder innocents or order the assassinations of those who would murder innocents - your post made no sense since you would likely murder innocents if you were in the same circumstances as the leaders of Hamas and Israel since your actions would be determined by your past circumstances/ nature/ nurture.

[Nearly Sane]

Sure - that's why there was a lot more in my posts than just expressing disapproval of the actions of the leaders of Israel and Hamas. My posts were mostly an analysis of the way in which the circumstances that Hamas and Israelis found themselves in led to the actions of both sides.

I called you out on your worthless post because it only consisted of you trying to portray yourself as someone who would not murder innocents or order the assassinations of those who would murder innocents - your post made no sense since you would likely murder innocents if you were in the same circumstances as the leaders of Hamas and Israel since your actions would be determined by your past circumstances/ nature/ nurture.

But there can't be a 'lot more' by your own argument here.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

But there can't be a 'lot more' by your own argument here.

Yes there can be a lot more, and there was. There was information on how the situation in Palestine had changed over the years due to the circumstances that evolved. There was a comparison with the conflict between Ukraine and Russia and the part that self-interest and prejudice plays in the opinions that people form about conflicts and there was a discussion of how circumstances/ nature/ nurture determine the actions of those involved. All far more interesting than you laughably trying to insert yourself as some kind of paragon of virtue in the discussions on this thread.

Not sure what argument you are referring to. 

[Nearly Sane]

Yes there can be a lot more, and there was. There was information on how the situation in Palestine had changed over the years due to the circumstances that evolved. There was a comparison with the conflict between Ukraine and Russia and the part that self-interest and prejudice plays in the opinions that people form about conflicts and there was a discussion of how circumstances/ nature/ nurture determine the actions of those involved. All far more interesting than you laughably trying to insert yourself as some kind of paragon of virtue in the discussions on this thread.

Not sure what argument you are referring to.

Not sure why you are not sure but your argument was that in the level we are talking, there is no choice about what you think.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Not sure why you are not sure but your argument was that in the level we are talking, there is no choice about what you think.

My argument is that what you think is determined by nature/ nurture/ circumstances - so information you read on this thread is part of nurture/ circumstances and will be one of the causes / determinants of what you think about the situation in the Middle East.

I could not see how your post declaring you currently don't have an inclination to murder innocents in the Middle East adds anything to the understanding of the situation in the ME - you are not in the situation that would lead you to murder innocents in Palestine or Israel so of course you won't murder them at the moment, but if you were in that situation you likely would murder them.