Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41578 times)

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #650 on: October 03, 2024, 10:29:19 PM »

Owen Jones on Israel and Palestine

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/03/slaughter-gaza-women-children-israel-7-october

Moderator note: this post has been merged with the ongoing thread on the subject.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2024, 09:02:01 AM by Nearly Sane »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #651 on: October 07, 2024, 08:37:39 AM »
One year on from the murderous Hamas attack, and a year of death followed by death followed by death. A good year for the 4 horsemen.

Roses

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #652 on: October 07, 2024, 04:26:57 PM »
In ALL wars it is the innocents on both sides who suffer much more than those who are responsible for the conflict, as is happening in the war between Israel and Hamas.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #653 on: October 10, 2024, 02:35:06 AM »
Hello, what painting do you want to glue yourself to, throw paint or soup over, caper around? And what cause are you campaigning for today, this hour, in the minute? Please form an orderly queue, and your campaign will be allowed shortly. Thank you for waiting in your protest queue today. Please note that being jailed may occur. Eye rolling, tutting, and oh ffs are to be expected .


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/national-gallery-picasso-motherhood-gaza-protest-youth-demand-israel-palestine-b1186831.html
« Last Edit: October 10, 2024, 02:51:38 AM by Nearly Sane »

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #654 on: October 14, 2024, 01:00:24 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #655 on: October 14, 2024, 01:20:58 PM »
Earlier he had to apologise to the Jewish community for remarks that seem light in comparison to what others in the SNP have said.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24144618.fm-john-mason-did-asked-antisemitism-row/

I'll be interested to see what reaction there are from the various Jewish groups in Scotland to his suspension.

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SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #657 on: October 15, 2024, 03:39:34 PM »
John Mason suspended from SNP for remarks on the war.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/snp-expels-msp-over-utterly-abhorrent-comments-on-israel-hamas-conflict
I'm at a loss to know what was objectionable in saying that Israel's actions don't yet amount to genocide.
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jeremyp

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #658 on: October 16, 2024, 09:45:04 AM »
I'm at a loss to know what was objectionable in saying that Israel's actions don't yet amount to genocide.

Because they don't.

Not that it matters. People are dying and there's no way to make it stop because both sides see this as existential.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #659 on: October 16, 2024, 09:52:56 AM »
Because they don't.

Not that it matters. People are dying and there's no way to make it stop because both sides see this as existential.
I think it's quite worrying that stating that you think the actions are wrong but don't in your opinion amount to genocide gets you suspended from a mainstream party. I mean don't get me wrong, I think Mason is an utter prick but on this I don't see a problem.

I see that there's a push to get Emily Thornberry suspended from Labour after she said

“There are war crimes on all sides it seems to me during this conflict. There are war crimes being committed by Hamas, by Iran, on all sides.”
 
Because she didn't name Israel

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #660 on: October 16, 2024, 10:15:31 PM »
So does this approach help or hinder Harris?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e9q4nylwjo

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #661 on: October 17, 2024, 12:02:19 AM »
"Mayor and 15 others killed in Israeli strike on Lebanon council meeting" - there are a number of bitter, rather bad taste, jokes I might make here but just ffs!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy43z81nnvlo

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #662 on: October 17, 2024, 02:26:36 PM »
John Mason suspended from SNP for remarks on the war.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/13/snp-expels-msp-over-utterly-abhorrent-comments-on-israel-hamas-conflict

Mason's comment doesn't make sense since the crime of genocide is defined as a crime of intentional destruction of a national, ethnic, racial and religious group, in whole or in part.

Acts of genocide include killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group and deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the destruction of the group in whole or in part.
Definition - Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition

If the above "destruction.... in part" can be classed as genocide, Israel does not need to "kill 10 times as many" in order to have committed genocide. There isn't a specific threshold of numbers killed before an accusation of genocide can be made. It can apply to an intent to destroy a group rather than specific numbers.

But not sure that an MP being too stupid to realise that you don't need to kill 10 times as many before you can be accused of genocide should get you suspended from your party. Lots of MPs make stupid arguments.

Maybe Ian Blackford, the SNP’s former Westminster leader, was referring to Mason's stupidity when (according to the linked article) he criticised Mason’s comments, saying on X: “You are not fit for public office. You are an embarrassment and not fit to represent anyone.”
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #663 on: October 18, 2024, 12:32:29 PM »
I think it's quite worrying that stating that you think the actions are wrong but don't in your opinion amount to genocide gets you suspended from a mainstream party. I mean don't get me wrong, I think Mason is an utter prick but on this I don't see a problem.

I see that there's a push to get Emily Thornberry suspended from Labour after she said

“There are war crimes on all sides it seems to me during this conflict. There are war crimes being committed by Hamas, by Iran, on all sides.”
 
Because she didn't name Israel
That's part of the problem - politicians not naming Israel, which emboldens Israel to carry out genocide and war crimes. Complicity in genocide is punishable under international law.

Case law has established that “a pattern of purposeful action” leading to the destruction of a significant part of the targeted group is enough to establish genocidal intent. https://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/ij/ictr/3.htm

https://tinyurl.com/aennvrff
Human rights NGOs based in Israel today called on the international community to take action now to prevent Israel from forcibly transferring hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have remained in the Northern Gaza Strip outside of the area, including by denying entry of essential humanitarian aid and fuel. The Israeli ceasefire coalition, the groups Gisha, B’Tselem, PHR-I and Yesh Din, said that there are alarming signs that the Israeli military is beginning to quietly implement the Generals’ Plan, also referred to as the Eiland Plan, which calls for complete forcible transfer of the civilians of the northern Gaza Strip through tightening the siege on the area and starving the population.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #664 on: October 18, 2024, 01:02:04 PM »
That's part of the problem - politicians not naming Israel, which emboldens Israel to carry out genocide and war crimes. Complicity in genocide is punishable under international law.

Case law has established that “a pattern of purposeful action” leading to the destruction of a significant part of the targeted group is enough to establish genocidal intent. https://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/ij/ictr/3.htm

https://tinyurl.com/aennvrff
Human rights NGOs based in Israel today called on the international community to take action now to prevent Israel from forcibly transferring hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have remained in the Northern Gaza Strip outside of the area, including by denying entry of essential humanitarian aid and fuel. The Israeli ceasefire coalition, the groups Gisha, B’Tselem, PHR-I and Yesh Din, said that there are alarming signs that the Israeli military is beginning to quietly implement the Generals’ Plan, also referred to as the Eiland Plan, which calls for complete forcible transfer of the civilians of the northern Gaza Strip through tightening the siege on the area and starving the population.
Are you suggesting that Thornberry is complicit in genocide?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #665 on: October 18, 2024, 02:24:36 PM »
Are you suggesting that Thornberry is complicit in genocide?
The below seems to indicate what would make the UK government complicit to genocide:

In April 2024 senior members of Britain's legal profession said the government needed to halt sales now to avoid "aiding and assisting an international wrongful act".
"The provision of military assistance and material to Israel may render the UK complicit in genocide as well as serious breaches of International Humanitarian Law," the judges, barristers and legal academics said in a 17-page letter to Prime Minister Rishi Sunak.

Assuming Thornberry is not responsible for deciding on UK arms sales to Israel, I assume only those responsible for arms sales to Israel could potentially be complicit to genocide in this scenario.

If UK political leadership started calling Israel's mass starvation and bombing of Palestinian civilians genocide or naming and shaming Israel for carrying out war crimes, then under international law the UK government would have a duty to act to prevent it, which is not something the UK government seems interested in doing.

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/icj-gaza-genocide-uk-failures-war-israeli-adviser-2844251

Mr Levy, however, accused the UK of double standards, pointing to how Britain and five other countries submitted detailed legal arguments to the ICJ in November claiming Myanmar committed genocide against the Rohingya ethnic group.

Commentators have also pointed to how the UK has staunchly supported Ukraine in its war with Russia, which has been repeatedly accused of committing genocide by Kyiv officials.

“I think it’s hardly breaking news to the rest of the world that the West champions international law when it’s convenient and pretends it’s not there when it’s inconvenient,” said Dr Levy.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #666 on: October 18, 2024, 03:42:49 PM »
The below seems to indicate what would make the UK government complicit to genocide:

In April 2024 senior members of Britain's legal profession said the government needed to halt sales now to avoid "aiding and assisting an international wrongful act".
"The provision of military assistance and material to Israel may render the UK complicit in genocide as well as serious breaches of International Humanitarian Law," the judges, barristers and legal academics said in a 17-page letter to Prime Minister Rishi Sunak.

Assuming Thornberry is not responsible for deciding on UK arms sales to Israel, I assume only those responsible for arms sales to Israel could potentially be complicit to genocide in this scenario.

If UK political leadership started calling Israel's mass starvation and bombing of Palestinian civilians genocide or naming and shaming Israel for carrying out war crimes, then under international law the UK government would have a duty to act to prevent it, which is not something the UK government seems interested in doing.

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/icj-gaza-genocide-uk-failures-war-israeli-adviser-2844251

Mr Levy, however, accused the UK of double standards, pointing to how Britain and five other countries submitted detailed legal arguments to the ICJ in November claiming Myanmar committed genocide against the Rohingya ethnic group.

Commentators have also pointed to how the UK has staunchly supported Ukraine in its war with Russia, which has been repeatedly accused of committing genocide by Kyiv officials.

“I think it’s hardly breaking news to the rest of the world that the West champions international law when it’s convenient and pretends it’s not there when it’s inconvenient,” said Dr Levy.
I don't disagree with Levy but I would say that it's all countries not just 'the West'.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #667 on: October 20, 2024, 10:42:02 AM »
I don't disagree with Levy but I would say that it's all countries not just 'the West'.
Which other countries were you thinking of specifically that intervene / interfere in the affairs of other countries?

Who would you say are their allies that back and arm their interventions?

Which countries are the biggest arms dealers in the world?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #668 on: October 20, 2024, 10:44:51 AM »
Which other countries were you thinking of specifically that intervene / interfere in the affairs of other countries?

Who would you say are their allies that back and arm their interventions?

Which countries are the biggest arms dealers in the world?
I'm not thinking of any countries in particular, rather I think all countries, which is why I used the term 'all countries' look on international law as subject to their interests.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #669 on: October 20, 2024, 11:03:00 AM »
I'm not thinking of any countries in particular, rather I think all countries, which is why I used the term 'all countries' look on international law as subject to their interests.
Does it matter if "all countries" look on international law as subject to their interests?

I mean in comparison to the actual handful of countries in the 'West' that earn millions in revenue arming certain regimes in order to carry out proxy wars that kill tens of thousands and send floods of refugees fleeing from areas where civilian infrastructure is destroyed and rule of law no longer applies?
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/uk-government-revealed-to-be-second-biggest-arms-dealer-in-the-world-204378/
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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #670 on: October 20, 2024, 11:29:38 AM »
Does it matter if "all countries" look on international law as subject to their interests?

I mean in comparison to the actual handful of countries in the 'West' that earn millions in revenue arming certain regimes in order to carry out proxy wars that kill tens of thousands and send floods of refugees fleeing from areas where civilian infrastructure is destroyed and rule of law no longer applies?
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/uk-government-revealed-to-be-second-biggest-arms-dealer-in-the-world-204378/
It matters if someone is singling out one group as Levy did.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2024, 11:37:38 AM by Nearly Sane »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #671 on: October 21, 2024, 10:42:36 AM »
It matters if someone is singling out one group as Levy did.
No explanation as to why it matters - so it doesn't matter.

Levy is singling out groups that preach to other countries about international humanitarian law while profiteering the most from flouting international humanitarian law e.g. by being the biggest arms sellers. Scale matters. No point including the small fry that don't kill as many civilians or make as much money from killing them.

The scale of destruction and war crimes in Gaza would not be possible without this continued flow of weapons from the U.S. Despite massive public protests, the Biden administration has been working to give Israel over $14 billion to buy more weapons. This is on top of the $3.8 billion the U.S. already gives to the Israeli military annually. Israel is required to use this money to buy U.S.-made weapons so the US companies profit from the ongoing slaughter of civilians.

This is a form of corporate welfare not only for the largest weapons manufacturers, like Lockheed Martin, RTX, Boeing, and General Dynamics, which have seen their stock prices skyrocket, but also for companies that are not typically seen as part of the weapons industry, such as Caterpillar, Ford, and Toyota.

After decades of Israeli occupation forces using Caterpillar's armored D9 bulldozers to "demolish Palestinian homes and civilian infrastructure in the occupied West Bank and to enforce the blockade of the Gaza Strip," the machines "have been crucial in the Israeli military's ground invasion" of the enclave, according to AFSC. https://afsc.org/gaza-genocide-companies
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #672 on: October 22, 2024, 03:19:24 PM »
No explanation as to why it matters - so it doesn't matter.

Levy is singling out groups that preach to other countries about international humanitarian law while profiteering the most from flouting international humanitarian law e.g. by being the biggest arms sellers. Scale matters. No point including the small fry that don't kill as many civilians or make as much money from killing them.

The scale of destruction and war crimes in Gaza would not be possible without this continued flow of weapons from the U.S. Despite massive public protests, the Biden administration has been working to give Israel over $14 billion to buy more weapons. This is on top of the $3.8 billion the U.S. already gives to the Israeli military annually. Israel is required to use this money to buy U.S.-made weapons so the US companies profit from the ongoing slaughter of civilians.

This is a form of corporate welfare not only for the largest weapons manufacturers, like Lockheed Martin, RTX, Boeing, and General Dynamics, which have seen their stock prices skyrocket, but also for companies that are not typically seen as part of the weapons industry, such as Caterpillar, Ford, and Toyota.

After decades of Israeli occupation forces using Caterpillar's armored D9 bulldozers to "demolish Palestinian homes and civilian infrastructure in the occupied West Bank and to enforce the blockade of the Gaza Strip," the machines "have been crucial in the Israeli military's ground invasion" of the enclave, according to AFSC. https://afsc.org/gaza-genocide-companies
A part of me was tempted to write 'so what' here but I think that would be indulgent. I'm really not sure what point you are making. Scale may matter but there are small countries in the 'West', and large countries with huge interests outside of it. So I'm missing what point you are trying to make.


There's an idea generally that the 'West', a simplistic treatment of things beyond a classification  are somehow worse because of hypocrisy, and yet that's the issue why singling out the 'West' is problematic because hypocrisy is the rule.

It might be that there's an idea that somehow those outside are less hypocritical, which is a bit like less pregnant, a bit like Kelin, the Russian ambassador here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8dxkz6yl2o

Bur oddly, that's very like Netanyahu's approach and I doubt you would approve of that.


I'm bemused at what point you are trying to make. If we agree that countries put forward their interests before international law, what difference is made by size or situation?


The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #673 on: October 22, 2024, 08:43:19 PM »
A part of me was tempted to write 'so what' here but I think that would be indulgent. I'm really not sure what point you are making. Scale may matter but there are small countries in the 'West', and large countries with huge interests outside of it. So I'm missing what point you are trying to make.

There's an idea generally that the 'West', a simplistic treatment of things beyond a classification  are somehow worse because of hypocrisy, and yet that's the issue why singling out the 'West' is problematic because hypocrisy is the rule.

It might be that there's an idea that somehow those outside are less hypocritical, which is a bit like less pregnant, a bit like Kelin, the Russian ambassador here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8dxkz6yl2o

Bur oddly, that's very like Netanyahu's approach and I doubt you would approve of that.


I'm bemused at what point you are trying to make. If we agree that countries put forward their interests before international law, what difference is made by size or situation?
That's an odd question. This thread was started presumably because scale mattered - otherwise who cares if Hamas killed 1,200 Israeli civilians or 2 Israeli civilians?

Similarly, by "scale" I was referring to the tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians that Israel is ethnically cleansing through bombing and starvation. Most of these bombs have been supplied by 'the West'. More bombs have been dropped on Gaza than during WWII on Hamburg, Dresden and London combined. Hiroshima faced the equivalent of 15,000 tons of TNT from the Atomic bombing. while it is estimated that Israel has dropped over 70,000 tons of explosives on Gaza.

Levy was referring to 'the West' and international law in the context of Western countries involved in current armed conflict of this scale while accusing other countries of war crimes or genocide. So I think it minimises the scale of the killing in Gaza caused by 'the West' flouting international law, and therefore the scale of the hypocrisy, if you try to compare it to other countries flouting international law on a smaller scale. Hence, I asked you which countries you were referring to.

'The West's' outrage by the number of civilians killed in the Hamas terrorist attack is problematic because 'the West' backs Israel's right to commit terrorism by killing far larger numbers of Palestinians.

It sends the message that scale only matters in relation to Israeli deaths but not Palestinian deaths. That has been a recurring theme in 'the West' since it began its imperial adventures - significant numbers of dead Western people i.e. those of a white hue in Western Europe, North America and Australasia = tragedy and moral outrage; significant numbers of dead non-Western people = very sad, but it's in our national interests to keep killing them. It is also a feature that 'the West' seems to consider other countries to be  lacking compassion/ moral values.

The Israeli lobby is also running a campaign to accuse people of antisemitism if they compare the 7th October 2023 Hamas terrorist attack to the tens of thousands of Palestinians that Israel has killed, kidnapped, assaulted, or deprived of their land/ homes/ livelihood/ food/ water etc especially since the blockade of Gaza's land, airspace and territorial waters from 2007.

And presumably there is a reason why it matters to governments whether people are killed by a terrorist organisation or a nation state - what is that reason? Terrorists kill people but 'The West' and especially the USA and UK make a lot of money selling large numbers of arms to governments and groups to kill thousands more civilians than terrorists kill. 

'The West' cares if a group is a terrorist group or not because 'The West' can impose sanctions, blockades and freeze assets of those groups they decide to deem terrorists, based on whether those groups benefit the national interests of 'the West'.

Presumably the point of this forum is to have a discussion about the effects and impact of these kinds of policies, which is a discussion of size and situation.
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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #674 on: October 23, 2024, 08:23:05 PM »
CNN is facing backlash for a sympathy piece on the mental health of Israeli soldiers deployed in Gaza, who have, in their own words, run over Palestinians "dead and alive, in the hundreds”, with bulldozers.

Zaken told CNN he was no longer able to eat meat due to seeing the Palestinian bodies crushed under the military vehicle: “Everything squirts out....When you see a lot of meat outside, and blood… both ours and theirs (Hamas), then it really affects you when you eat,” he said, referring to people's bodies as "meat".

Social media users said article on declining mental health of Israeli soldiers returning from Gaza helps whitewash potential war crimes by troops

Several people highlighted that the deceased soldier at the centre of the story, Eliran Mizrahi, was a D-9 bulldozer driver who was "clearing" bodies and debris - something that is not mentioned until about a third of the way through the article.

CNN writes that his friend and colleague, Guy Zaken, told Israel's parliament in June that soldiers ran over “terrorists, dead and alive, in the hundreds”.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/21/middleeast/gaza-war-israeli-soldiers-ptsd-suicide-intl/index.html

"His co-driver talks about crushing people so badly their bodies explode and how he’s so disturbed by this that he can no longer eat meat, but in the next breath says there’s 'no such thing as citizens' in Gaza," another person said.

https://x.com/Jonathan_K_Cook/status/1848452184675164594
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