Author Topic: Hamas attacks Israel.  (Read 41513 times)

SteveH

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #675 on: October 23, 2024, 08:41:29 PM »
CNN is facing backlash for a sympathy piece on the mental health of Israeli soldiers deployed in Gaza, who have, in their own words, run over Palestinians "dead and alive, in the hundreds”, with bulldozers.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #676 on: October 26, 2024, 01:43:31 PM »
Apparently this is between Iran and Israel is proportionate, nothing to worry about.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgr0yvrx4qpo

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #677 on: November 01, 2024, 07:53:44 PM »
Was Israel's limited and muted attack on Iran because the Israelis were worried about having their planes shot down by Iran's air defence systems? Iran has received shipments of surface-to-air missiles from Russia and has also built its own customised version. 

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2024/10/26/iran-dome-arman-bavar-373-and-irans-other-air-defence-systems-explained.html

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/iran-antiair-range-repel-israel

Reports from Iranian sources indicate that while medium range surface to air missiles were used to neutralise Israeli missiles used in the first wave of attacks, long range air defence systems were subsequently employed. This included the first ever use by the country’s armed forces of an air defence system to strike a target over 100 kilometres away. The Iranian Air Defence Forces field multiple surface to air missile systems capable of engaging targets at such ranges, including a heavily customised variant of the Russian S-300PMU-2 delivered in 2018. Although the standard longest ranged armament for the S-300PMU-2 is the 48N6E2 which has a 200 kilometre range, the system is reportedly compatible with the much more modern 48N6DM which can engage missiles at very high supersonic speeds including hypersonic speeds exceeding Mach 5, and has a 250 kilometre range.

Iran was reported in 2020 to have received new missiles for its S-300s, which were speculated to be 48N6DM missiles. China previously tested this Russian-supplied missile class to successful intercept targets travelling at speeds exceeding Mach 8 at 250 kilometre ranges - a performance far exceeding that of any of Israel’s air launched missiles.



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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #678 on: November 01, 2024, 08:11:21 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/30/manchester-university-student-dana-abu-qamar-wins-back-visa-after-pro-gaza-comments

A Palestinian student who was stripped of her student visa by the UK government on 1 December 2023, after speaking at a university demonstration on Gaza’s historical resistance to Israel’s “oppressive regime” and giving a subsequent interview with Sky News, has won a human rights appeal against the UK Home Office’s decision.

The tribunal said the Home Office decision to strip her of her visa on the grounds that her presence was “not conducive to the public good” was a “disproportionate interference with her protected right to free speech”

The dual Jordanian-Canadian citizen of Palestinian origin had said after the 7 October attacks : “For 16 years Gaza has been under blockade, and for the first time they are actively resisting, they are not on the defence, and this is truly a once in a lifetime experience.”

She also said: “And everyone is, we are both in fear, but also in fear of what, how Israel will retaliate and how we’ve seen it retaliate overnight, and the missiles that it’s launched and the attacks, but also we are full of pride. We are really, really full of joy of what happened.”

Abu Qamar told the Guardian the judgment set an important precedent. “This ruling validates the right to voice support for human rights for the plight of Palestinians and the right to resist occupation,” she said on Wednesday.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #679 on: November 04, 2024, 01:05:33 PM »
East Sussex Council divest from pension funds partly invested in Israeli company (Elbit System) that profits from collective punishment of Palestinian civilians. https://brightonpsc.org/east-sussex-pension-fund-divests-from-israeli-arms-manufacturer/

West London Councillor Emma Dent-Coad has called on Kensington and Chelsea Council to move its pension fund away from any portfolio that includes Elbit Systems over fears the cash is funding a company producing weapons for use in the Israel-Hamas War.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/kensington-and-chelsea-council-israel-weapons-pension-fund-b1191616.html

A recent review by Kensington and Chelsea Council found money being held by investment funds such as Baillie Gifford Global and Adams Street Private Equity had “zero exposure to ‘indiscriminate weapons, weapons of mass destruction or nuclear weapons'”.

However, BlackRock Aquila Life, which holds £14m of the council’s £1.8bn pension fund, was found to have invested in Elbit System and General Dynamic Corp. In August, Elbit announced a $340m (£292m) contract to supply the Israeli Ministry of Defense (IMOD) with ammunition over the next decade, according to a company press release.

A similar deal worth $760m (£585m) was signed in May. A press release at the time said since the start of the Israel-Hamas War, Elbit had experienced “a material increased demand for its products and solutions” by Israel’s Ministry of Defense “compared to the demand levels prior to the war”.

It seems that Palestine Action campaign to vandalise branches of Barclays has resulted in Barclays divesting from Elbit Systems.

The campaign has seen two of Elbit’s weapons factories forced to permanently shut down in Britain, and has forced a number of partners to halt relations with Elbit. Recently, activists have struck at over a dozen premises in Britain of Allianz a major shareholder in and insurer of Elbit.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/news/2024/10/31/barclays-divest-elbit-palestine-action/
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #680 on: November 06, 2024, 09:34:55 AM »
"Protests erupt in Israel after Netanyahu fires defence minister" - more cheery news this morning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqj07jdzzgno

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #681 on: November 08, 2024, 10:25:01 AM »

ekim

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #682 on: November 08, 2024, 02:55:37 PM »
The most prominent Islamic scholar in Gaza has issued a rare, powerful fatwa condemning Hamas’s 7 October 2023 attack on Israel

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4vw1l8xvdo

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #683 on: November 09, 2024, 08:06:45 PM »
Qatar pulls out of mediating role


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c774d4p2mx6o

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #684 on: November 10, 2024, 08:57:14 AM »
Qatar pulls out of mediating role


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c774d4p2mx6o
I note that Qatar has suspended its role. The media around the world of course spin events to mean something else depending on their geographical location, which is one of the reasons for a lot of the anti-Arab sentiment and bias displayed by those exposed to Western media in this instance. From your link:

Qatar said initial reports it had withdrawn from mediation talks and said that Hamas's political office in Doha "no longer serves its purpose" were "inaccurate".

"Qatar notified the parties 10 days ago during the last attempts to reach an agreement, that it would stall its efforts to mediate between Hamas and Israel if an agreement was not reached in that round," a statement from the Qatari foreign ministry said.

"Qatar will resume those efforts... when the parties show their willingness and seriousness to end the brutal war."

Several news agencies reported on Saturday that Qatar had agreed with the US to tell Hamas to close its political office in Doha due to "a refusal to negotiate a deal in good faith".

But the foreign ministry said the reports were "inaccurate". The claims have also been denied by Hamas officials.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #685 on: November 10, 2024, 09:32:37 AM »
Interesting spin by the media to portray the violence in Amsterdam as anti-Semitism. Could help explain the environment where Israeli victimhood is covered disproportionately and Palestinian lives matter less than Israeli lives or Ukrainian lives:

The New York Times ran the headline, “Israeli soccer fans injured in attacks linked to antisemitism in Amsterdam,” but the body of the article contained verified evidence of anti-Arab racism by the Israeli football fans, which could explain the attacks against those football fans. Its lead emphasized antisemitic motivation, while the body of the article cited footage by Maccabi Tel Aviv fans chanting anti-Arab and racist slogans – footage that the New York Times had verified.

Other mainstream outlets like NBC, CBS, CNN, and the BBC, all ran headlines emphasizing that Israelis had been “attacked.” The language used was incendiary e.g. President Isaac Herzog used the word “pogrom” to describe what happened.

Despite no Israeli fans being killed, Reuters used the phrase “antisemitic attack squads,” while the Telegraph quoted the Dutch king in its headline, leading with "We failed Jews during football attacks as we did under Nazis.” Yet 43,000 dead Palestinians killed by Israeli bombing is minimised by many of the same media outlets, with no such incendiary language being employed.

Another version of the headlines could be Israeli football hooligans with war traumas, from a country that commits genocide and engages in extreme dehumanization, run around Amsterdam tearing down Palestinian flags and chanting racist anti-Arab slogans, resulting in Israeli fans being randomly attacked by groups of Pro-Palestinian young men.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/video/violence-in-amsterdam-what-we-know-so-far/vi-AA1tNgAz?ocid=socialshare
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #686 on: November 10, 2024, 04:59:50 PM »
Here and in Ukraine we can see the 'true meaning of Remembrance Day'


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd6v3zq2jvjo

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #687 on: November 12, 2024, 09:22:19 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #688 on: November 21, 2024, 09:58:25 AM »


Moderator note: The Accountant's post copied from SfG as parts are more relevant here, and have generated a reply on this topic from jeremyp - see next post

VG,

No. Try two examples:

1. The God of the OT says, “slaughter the Canaanite men, women and children because their behaviour is sinful”. The Jews accept that as an article of faith and slay the Canaanites.

2. Netanyahu says, “kill the Palestinian men, women and children in Gaza because that way we may also exterminate Hezbollah and in any case our retribution for the October 7 killings will be so terrible that they’ll never attempt the same thing again”.

In both cases, as you note, lots of innocent people end up dead. In the former case though, the faith claim is the beginning and the end of the matter – there’s no way to know if the God of the OT is real and nor, even if "He" is, whether his instructions are faithfully written in a text. There's no particular, real world outcome other than delivering on the article of faith.     

In the second case though, either it works or it doesn’t – ie, either Hezbollah regroups and attacks again, or they never again try it. 

Note too that in the second case there’s no overt reference to a moral or philosophical imperative (which is all there is in the first case). Instead there’s a claim to a pragmatic, real world solution that demonstrably after the slaughter can be shown to have worked or not (regardless of how morally contemptible you or I think it to be whether or not it achieves its objective).

This difference clearly is a difference no matter how much you try to obfuscate that, and I happen to think it’s quite an important one too.   
You keep mentioning you think it's an important difference without ever explaining why you think it's important.

You're comparing a Bible story with a real event? Bible stories, like many religious stories are brief illustrations to make a religious point rather than historically accurate descriptions to be taken literally. Why not pick a real world event to illustrate your point about faith claims.

Are you suggesting with your Netanyahu example and the support he has from Western governments that Israel and its allies don't consider morality or values to be important in their decision to bomb civilians? It is just an academic exercise in recording metrics on how much bombing will allow a country to make an area so uninhabitable that it can ensure there is no resistance to illegal military occupation? Why is that demonstrating the superiority of making decisions based on metrics rather than religion?

The Israelis (supported by their foreign allies) have been bombing, killing and abducting tens of thousands of Palestinians for decades and it hasn't worked in ending resistance to Israel's illegal military occupation. They blockaded Gaza since 2007 turning it into the largest "open air prison" and it didn't work. All that happened was that other countries supporting Israel became targets for terrorism. So why are they ignoring metrics and continuing to do what hasn't worked in the past?

The US bombed and killed thousands of civilians during its War on Terror https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/911-civilian-casualties-iraq-afghanistan-b1912816.html - it didn't work in ending the Taliban.

Sanctions on Iraq and mass bombing of civilian infrastructure killed tens of thousands of Iraqis - ok the US got some oil revenue out of it and US taxpayers spent trillions killing people so it worked in terms of making some private US companies very rich. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-war-bush-twentieth-anniversary-b2302031.html

The US also bombed and killed tens of thousands of Vietnamese - it didn't work in ending Vietcong resistance.

The metrics you might want to look at is how much money are weapons manufacturers earning and how long  Netanyahu can delay his criminal trial by prolonging and extending the war -  to avoid facing up to corruption charges and prison.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/court-rejects-netanyahus-request-to-delay-testimony-in-criminal-trial/

Netanyahu’s defense team requested the delay because it said the prime minister has been unable to prepare for giving testimony, set to begin on December 2, due to the time pressures of managing the current, multi-front conflict.

I still don't get the "important" difference you are trying to highlight. What is the important difference between religious claims and people seemingly ignoring metrics and making decisions based on wishful thinking and their human psychotic urge to kill lots of people?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #689 on: November 21, 2024, 10:01:11 AM »

Moderator note, as per previous post this is reply from jeremy p to the previous post originally on SfG

That's a gross distortion of the Palestinian situation. For one thing, Israel can't turn Gaza into an "open air prison" by itself. Gaza has a border with Egypt and a coastline.

Anyway, that's all off topic for this thread, so I'll say no more.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #690 on: November 21, 2024, 12:42:59 PM »
'Arrest warrants issued for Netanyahu, Gallant and Hamas commander over alleged war crimes' - from the International Criminal Court


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #691 on: November 21, 2024, 05:52:11 PM »
Moderator note, as per previous post this is reply from jeremy p to the previous post originally on SfG

That's a gross distortion of the Palestinian situation.
JeremyP

Rather than assert it's a gross distortion the same way you previously asserted that Hamas was beheading Israeli babies, which turned out to be a lie propagated by Israeli first responders, presumably you have some links to post as to why you think it is a gross distortion? Apologists for Israel routinely make false statements hoping that pro-Western, anti-Arab bias means they will be automatically believed without scrutiny.

Quote
For one thing, Israel can't turn Gaza into an "open air prison" by itself. Gaza has a border with Egypt and a coastline.

Anyway, that's all off topic for this thread, so I'll say no more.
Egypt doesn't want Israel to succeed in its ethnic cleansing by permanently expelling thousands of Palestinians as refugees into Egypt. Nor does it want Palestinian militants walking in as that endangers its peace treaty with Israel and could cause political disruption in Egypt. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/why-egypt-and-other-arab-nations-are-hesitant-to-take-in-palestinian-refugees

What's your point?

In​ 2004, a year before Israel’s unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip, Dov Weissglass, an aide to Ariel Sharon, explained the initiative’s purpose to an interviewer from Haaretz:

The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process ... And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda."

Since Israel's "withdrawal" Israel maintains sole control of Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and does not allow any movement of people or goods in or out of Gaza via air or sea.

Since 2007, all exports were banned, and just 131 truckloads of foodstuffs and other essential products were permitted entry per day. Israel also strictly controlled which products could and could not be imported. Prohibited items have included A4 paper, chocolate, coriander, crayons, jam, pasta, shampoo, shoes and wheelchairs.

Israel controlled no-go zones within the Gaza strip and even the population registry, meaning Israel gets to determine who is a Palestinian and who isn’t inside the Gaza strip. Israel also continues to control electricity, water and telecommunications in Gaza. It has regularly conducted raids in Gaza, often arresting “wanted” men; and carrying out so-called “targeted killings”, in air strikes which have claimed a high toll on civilians.

https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/the-gaza-strip-is-no-longer-occupied/

I could go on describing the daily discrimination, indignities and humiliations since 1948 - Israel's bulldozing of Palestinian homes, annexation of privately-owned land, destruction of private property, restriction of water, its pollution or razing of Palestinian orchards, enabling settler violence, lack of access for young and old to medical care and education, poverty, mass unemployment, generations trapped with no future and nowhere to go - but you already know all this and clearly you don't see it as wrong.


I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #692 on: Today at 08:37:02 AM »
'Arrest warrants issued for Netanyahu, Gallant and Hamas commander over alleged war crimes' - from the International Criminal Court


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o
Biden says the warrant against Netanyahu is outrageous, some European countries says they'll respect the warrants, UK says it respects the independence of the court. Hmm...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c704y7gwr95o

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Hamas attacks Israel.
« Reply #693 on: Today at 08:59:43 AM »
'Arrest warrants issued for Netanyahu, Gallant and Hamas commander over alleged war crimes' - from the International Criminal Court


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o
Not surprised to see the US is trying to pass legislation (already been passed by the House of Representatives) under which the US would impose sanctions on people "engaged in any effort to investigate, arrest, detain or prosecute any protected person of the United States and its allies”.

Mass population transfer / forced removal of Palestinians from their land, which in this case amounts to ethnic cleansing, is not technically a crime otherwise I assume it would be one of the charges. Presumably it gets included in the crime of genocide.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20241114-israel-committing-ethnic-cleansing-amid-mass-forced-displacements-gaza-hrw-report-says

Israel has ethnically cleansed Palestinians before with the initial expulsion of 700,000 -750,000 (depending on the source) Palestinians in Palestine in 1948.  https://imeu.org/article/explainer-plan-dalet-the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine

Systematic ethnic cleansing continued from 1949-56. Between 1949 and 1950, according to historian Benny Morris, Israel displaced and expelled between 30,000 and 40,000 Palestinians and Bedouin. Many villages along the ceasefire lines and the Lebanon border area were levelled, and many emptied villages were resettled by new Jewish immigrants and demobilized Israeli military forces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949%E2%80%931956_Palestinian_expulsions
 
Apparently in 1948, Ben Gurion (Israel's 1st PM) said it was more important to fulfil Zionist objectives than to worry about world condemnation so Israel committed ethnic cleansing as the area allotted to the Jewish state under partition would have had a large Arab population, which Israeli leaders considered a threat to maintaining a Jewish state. 

Any Palestinian refugees attempting to return to the homes that Israel drove them out from or enter their villages to get food to eat from their orchards or personal items were shot as 'infiltrators'.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:26:44 PM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi