Horizon scandal: Call for all Post Office convictions to be overturned

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting that there is an explicit acceptance that some people guilty of some things may have their convictions overturned but that it is on balance better than other likely outcomes.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67719051

[SteveH]

What I don't understand about the Horizon scandal is why it never occurred to any of the high-ups in the Post Office that the sudden flood of apparent fraud cases might indicate a problem with the computer system.

[Nearly Sane]

What I don't understand about the Horizon scandal is why it never occurred to any of the high0ups in the Post Office that the sudden flood of apparent fraud cases might indicate a problem with the computer system.

And ignored people saying that it was the problem.

I suspect some group think, then fear that if they were wrong what that might mean.

[Harrowby Hall]

Mr Bates versus the Post Office

I have binge-watched this excellent ITV feature.

Two thoughts occur to me.
One  - why have not senior executives in the Post Office been charged with Perverting the Course of Justice.
Two  -  how is it that the Post Office is allowed to have the right to pursue prosecution independently, without the police or any other public authority being involved?

[jeremyp]

What I don't understand about the Horizon scandal is why it never occurred to any of the high-ups in the Post Office that the sudden flood of apparent fraud cases might indicate a problem with the computer system.

There's two possible explanations for a sudden increase in fraud cases following the commissioning of new software:

1. there's a problem with the new software

2. it's easier to detect fraud with the new software.

If you were part of the management team that was responsible for installing the new software at great expense, which explanation would you prefer to believe?

[Nearly Sane]

Mr Bates versus the Post Office

I have binge-watched this excellent ITV feature.

Two thoughts occur to me.
One  - why have not senior executives in the Post Office been charged with Perverting the Course of Justice.
Two  -  how is it that the Post Office is allowed to have the right to pursue prosecution independently, without the police or any other public authority being involved?

Some details on the position of the Post Office here


https://insights.doughtystreet.co.uk/post/102gtzh/private-prosecutions-after-the-post-office-debacle

[Dicky Underpants]

Watching 'Mr Bates V The Post office' on ITV1. I've long been aware of the injustices associated with the Post Masters/Mistresses of course, but this dramatic interpretation crystallizes some of the very disquieting and upsetting themes relating to this still ongoing saga. For me it's difficult to watch without feelings of outrage and frustration but I find it absolutely riveting.

Entirely agree. But I was amazed to realise that the egregious Paula Vennells is an Anglican priest. Particularly since she has the emotional intelligence and insight of a half-brick.
C.B.E.? I hope for not much longer.

[Nearly Sane]

Entirely agree. But I was amazed to realise that the egregious Paula Vennells is an Anglican priest. Particularly since she has the emotional intelligence and insight of a half-brick.
C.B.E.? I hope for not much longer.

Petition here to remove

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe

[Enki]

Petition here to remove

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe

Cheers! My wife and I have now signed.

[SteveH]

Petition here to remove

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe

That vile woman deserves whatever she gets, but she has lost her various directorships and her role as a priest, and, since I haven't been personally affected, it would seem to be merely vindictive for me to sign.

[SteveH]

Just watched part 1 of 'Mr Bates v. the Post Office', and will watch parts 2 and 3 later. I was amazed to discover that the Post Office has the right to bring its own prosecutions without the police being involved - at least, it did then; maybe that's changed now: if not, it certainly needs to be ended.

[Dicky Underpants]

That vile woman deserves whatever she gets, but she has lost her various directorships and her role as a priest, and, since I haven't been personally affected, it would seem to be merely vindictive for me to sign.

Alan Bates, one of the main heroes of this disgusting, sadistic affair refused his O.B.E because PV. had been awarded a C.B E. Let those deserving of honours step forward to collect them, and let hypocritical bastards be deprived of them.
And in the case of P.V., a few years in jail might give her pause to reflect on the full extent of the suffering for which she is to a great extent responsible. When the pressure is on, this will no doubt cause her to bleat enough to flush out the other faceless (and overpaid) monsters who ran the show from their foxholes.

[Nearly Sane]

That vile woman deserves whatever she gets, but she has lost her various directorships and her role as a priest, and, since I haven't been personally affected, it would seem to be merely vindictive for me to sign.

Then given she was in part given it for her services to the Post Office, it seems to me you are happy to not support the state honouring someone for actions that led to suicides. And yes, it's a minimal thing but one you are choosing not to do.

[jeremyp]

Then given she was in part given it for her services to the Post Office, it seems to me you are happy to not support the state honouring someone for actions that led to suicides. And yes, it's a minimal thing but one you are choosing not to do.

Devil's advocate argument here...

She assumed the position of Post Office CEO after most of the Horizon cases had already occurred so you can't blame her for the fiasco that was Horizon. She was in charge during all the covering up and obstruction and so on but I wonder how much she actually knew. You could argue that she should have made it her business to know, especially as she had to answer difficult questions in Parliament and in court (oh, actually not the latter according to ITV), but who of us has not let things slide when it might make our lives a bit more difficult to do the right thing. And, before you say "not me" just remember that, according to the ITV drama, this is exactly how a number of sub postmasters got criminal records. It's entirely possible that Paula Vennells was just grossly incompetent and unfit to hold the post of CEO of any kind of organisation.

Anyway, I was so angry after watching the first two episodes of the ITV series that I had to stop. I have since calmed down and watched the second two episodes but I'm still pretty upset because, as a person who worked in the industry of bespoke computer systems for ten years, including the period when Horizon must have been written, I know that the claim "it couldn't be the computer system" is utterly false. I would laugh in your face if you made the claim of any such system.

Furthermore, I know, if the Post Office had accepted that it could be the computer system, it would have been fixed quicker and fewer lives would have been destroyed. As an example, consider one of the early scenes where Jo Hamilton had a deficit of £2,000 and rang the "help" line to try to resolve it. Had they taken the line "oh it's a bug in Horizon" they would have logged a defect, the discrepancy would be accounted for and the software would have been fixed. Jo would not have had to answer criminal charges and neither would a lot of sub postmasters who fell foul of the same bug.

It was all so fucking unprofessional, even before we get to the cover ups and the obstruction. People need to go to prison for this. And yes, Paula Vennells needs to be stripped of her CBE which she gained under false pretences.

[SteveH]

Then given she was in part given it for her services to the Post Office, it seems to me you are happy to not support the state honouring someone for actions that led to suicides. And yes, it's a minimal thing but one you are choosing not to do.

I'm not happy about any of this affair, except the vindication of the victims, but whether Vennels loses her CBE or not is of no importance whatsoever.

[jeremyp]

I'm not happy about any of this affair, except the vindication of the victims, but whether Vennels loses her CBE or not is of no importance whatsoever.

It is important because it's a message that says "good job running the Post Office" during a period in which it literally drove people to suicide. It's saying "good job running an organisation that kills people".

Also, if anybody deserves an honour out of this fiasco, it is Alan Bates, and he clearly won't accept it as long as Ms Vennells has hers.

[Nearly Sane]

Police investigating that the recovery of money for the 'frauds' was in itself fraud.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67899189

[Nearly Sane]

Lib Dems calling out their own incompetence

https://libdemwatch.org/f/lib-dem-ministers-not-aware-of-multiple-post-office-failings

[SteveH]

Lib Dems calling out their own incompetence

https://libdemwatch.org/f/lib-dem-ministers-not-aware-of-multiple-post-office-failings

Hardly "calling out their own" - it's an anti-Lib Dem site.

[Nearly Sane]

Hardly "calling out their own" - it's an anti-Lib Dem site.

Yes, I know but the Lib Dems saying that they knew nothing is calling out their own incompetence.

[Enki]

That vile woman deserves whatever she gets, but she has lost her various directorships and her role as a priest, and, since I haven't been personally affected, it would seem to be merely vindictive for me to sign.

If you feel that to sign the petition would imply vindictiveness on your part then I agree with you completely. You shouldn't sign. As both my wife and I think that it is completely unjustified to give an award(CBE) to a person who was in overall control of the fiasco which affected and is still affecting so many people's lives, we have no feelings of revenge or vindictiveness. Consequentially, even though we accept that it is not that important within the limits of this whole sad affair, we were happy to sign the petition.

[Dicky Underpants]

If you feel that to sign the petition would imply vindictiveness on your part then I agree with you completely. You shouldn't sign. As both my wife and I think that it is completely unjustified to give an award(CBE) to a person who was in overall control of the fiasco which affected and is still affecting so many people's lives, we have no feelings of revenge or vindictiveness. Consequentially, even though we accept that it is not that important within the limits of this whole sad affair, we were happy to sign the petition.

It may be more important than you think. Apart from giving the British people some sense that there is still justice somewhere in the world, the woman herself may start to name names of various morally bankrupt jerks who were also running the show, in her attempts to justify herself.
Alan Bates himself knows more about her part in the scandal than any of us, and if he refuses his OBE until PV's award is withdrawn, that's good enough for me.

[Dicky Underpants]

Did anyone see the documentary with interviews of the real life victims, which was screened after the drama series? I had listened to several radio programmes on the matter over the last 2 years, and these were harrowing enough, but I thought that justice was finally prevailing.
Then I watched this TV drama, with its further catalogue of enormities, and realised things were worse than I thought. Then in the final credits I noticed the actual figures of wronged innocents totalling over a thousand, of attempted and actual suicides,  and at least four wrongful imprisonments. My jaw just dropped to the floor.
Then I watched the interviews with actual innocent victims. I was particularly moved ( and outraged) by the treatment of the postmaster from Anglesey, Noel Thomas, and the Indian lady, Saman Kaur. The latter had the additional horror of dealing with racist attacks and made two suicide attempts, and was plunged into so deep a depression they tried the old ECT treatment on her 14 times. The result of this is that the whole memory of her early life has been wiped out and she has been taking anti-depressant medication ever since.
But we must assume the sainted Paula Vennells has suffered enough must we?

[SteveH]

But we must assume the sainted Paula Vennells has suffered enough must we?

I don't think that anyone has suggested that. I think she should certainly lose her CBE (which is not inconsistent with my declination to sign a petition to that effect), and perhaps serve time in jail, and thereafter be barred for life from holding directorships or CEOs.

[SteveH]

The Observer's view.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/the-observer-view-on-the-post-office-scandal-corporate-and-legal-powers-used-to-abuse-must-be-checked/ar-AA1myNjc

After last week’s ITV dramatisation of the scandal – which has played an important role in raising public awareness – the Metropolitan police said they had commenced a criminal fraud investigation in relation to the Post Office; they were already investigating two Fujitsu experts in relation to perjury and perverting the course of justice.