Horizon scandal: Call for all Post Office convictions to be overturned

[Nearly Sane]

I see Sunak is trying the 'it's really dreadful that someine allowed this to happen' defence ignoring that the Tories have been in govt for 13 years. Fucking disgraceful.

[SteveH]

Government considering taking away PO's power of independent prosecution. Quite right too.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/07/rishi-sunak-plan-exonerate-post-office-horizon-scandal-victims

[jeremyp]

Government considering taking away PO's power of independent prosecution. Quite right too.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/07/rishi-sunak-plan-exonerate-post-office-horizon-scandal-victims

The more important part of that story is that they are looking into ways to exonerate all the victims. It's my opinion that any prosecution of a sub postmaster during the period is unsafe because of the software issues, but individuals will have problems clearing their names because they've got to find positive evidence to overturn their convictions.

[Nearly Sane]

Watching the various panicked statements from the govt on this, the questions that remains is would you have been doing this except for the TV programme and the answer is no.

It is a story of extreme and serial incompetence from govts but one where time passing and information being clear, the incompetence grew.

[Nearly Sane]

Apparently Vince Cable thinks Ed Davey is beinh made a scapegoat for the scandal because it's an election year, and the issue has become politicised. Imagine the competence of the leader of a political party when they were a minister in the govt becoming politicised! I am beyond shocked, I am shaken, and indeed stirred.

Bunch of useless narcissists

[jeremyp]

I found this video yesterday.

The first part in which the journalist explains the background is extremely interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpkSIGd7Z68

Some highlights:

- the Post Office Investigative Branch is the oldest policing organisation in the World

- sub-postmasters are not employees of the Post Office, they work under contract.

- ICL (later Fujitsu) won the contract for Horizon despite coming last in the bidding process in eight of eleven categories because they put forward an innovative contract structure in which they took most of the risk.

- The Post Office had to pay Fujitsu to investigate defects

- Fujitsu had to pay the Post Office whenever the service level agreement was breached

The last two points are important because it means neither Fujitsu nor the Post Office had any incentive to report problems to the other party.

The second part was taken up by the personal stories of two sub-postmasters. It was very hard to listen to this bit.

Then we have Q&A.

As a person who was in the bespoke software industry for many years, I found the answer to the first question very illuminating.

Fujitsu built a prototype system and demo'd it to the PO who then said it was great so roll it out. Now, the word "prototype" is used differently in the software industry as compared to manufacturing. A prototype is usually hacked together quickly to give the customer an idea of what the final system will look like. There is usually an understanding (amongst the programmers, at least) that the prototype will be thrown away and not used in production. It would be better to call a software prototype a mock up. That would be a more honest appraisal of what you have got.

Anyway, in this case the prototype was not thrown away and instead, they rolled it into production and built on it. Nick Wallis at 1:20:13 is quite wrong to say that normally everybody throws the prototype away. What Fujitsu did happens quite often. It's a recognised risk of developing prototypes. It's really hard to demonstrate a prototype to the customer and then, when they say "great, let's roll it out", tell them it'll be another six months.

Horizon was never fit for purpose and given the devastation it caused, multiple people from Fujitsu and the PO need to go to prison.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree with jeremyp on the use of prototypes. My experience in that situation is that the supplier will normally do fixes/updates for an agreed period for free because they are getting paid for something that isn't.comokete, and getting the benefit of it being tested and improved in live. Both vendor and buyer in that situation should have proper risk management set up before any implemenation which highlights the risk of such an approach. Here we seem to have had an antirisk management aporoach where issues were deliberately buried.

I'd like to see people prosecuted for this, and Fujitsu sued. I fear that the time that has passed, and the complexity of the subject will make it diificult. I suspect that many records will be missing simoky because the amount of time passed is far more than the legal requirements for record keeping.

[Aruntraveller]

I also have some experience with new systems being implemented (in the NHS) and whenever a new system started up or an update was done we had a checklist of items that we watched for changes, re-running reports to check we got the same outcomes, (and on and on) and also feedback from the staff using the systems. It still seems inconceivable to me that this was not picked up, which leads me to the same conclusion that everyone else has come to which is that this was malicious and wilful behaviour on the part of the PO/ICL/Fujitsu.

[Nearly Sane]

Vennells handing back CBE. I'm still baffled how the govt thought it was reasonable giving it, and the lack of accepting responsibility for that undermines their weaselly witless maunderings now.

[jeremyp]

BBC on Paula Vennells' CBE

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67925304

[jeremyp]

It still seems inconceivable to me that this was not picked up, which leads me to the same conclusion that everyone else has come to which is that this was malicious and wilful behaviour on the part of the PO/ICL/Fujitsu.

As I said above, the Post Office had to pay Fujitsu every time they wanted a defect fixed and Fujitsu had to pay the Post Office if they reported too many issues to the PO. Couple that with the internal culture that has persisted for centuries in which sub-postmasters are "not us" and untrustworthy and it's inconceivable to me that something like this could be avoided.

[Nearly Sane]

Be interesting to see how this plays out for Scotland. It seems a bit much of the SNP to play dumb, even though it's appealing to their strength


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67937805

[SteveH]

The real heroes of the affair - MPs.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mps-finally-recognise-the-real-heroes-of-the-post-office-scandal-mps/ar-AA1mLzSf

[Nearly Sane]

The real heroes of the affair - MPs.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mps-finally-recognise-the-real-heroes-of-the-post-office-scandal-mps/ar-AA1mLzSf

Excellent.

[Nearly Sane]

Scary, compulsive viewing from the enquiry with Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office investigator, being questioned.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67941754

[Nearly Sane]

Tangled tangles

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/now-education-secretary-gillian-keegans-husband-michael-is-dragged-into-post-office-scandal-as-labour-says-inquiry-should-consider-his-role-as-head-of-horizon-it-supplier-fujitsu/ar-AA1mGUzy

[Nearly Sane]

More on the Crown Office involvement in Scotland


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67945208

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed

[Nearly Sane]

'Post Office lied and threatened BBC over Horizon whistleblower'.
I feel the BBC is in part readying a position that they did everything they could as investigative journalism in case questions are asked about it needing a drama to get anything done. We may soon be running out of people who can ask questions.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

[jeremyp]

Tangled tangles

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/now-education-secretary-gillian-keegans-husband-michael-is-dragged-into-post-office-scandal-as-labour-says-inquiry-should-consider-his-role-as-head-of-horizon-it-supplier-fujitsu/ar-AA1mGUzy

Consider this:

He denies any wrongdoing while at Fujitsu, having been CEO for little more than a year in 2014 and 2015, before the legal case by the sub-postmasters against the Post Office began in 2016.

Yes, he was not in charge for most of the period during which this was going on, but, he must have known about it. you're not going to convince me that the CEO of the Post Office didn't know what what going on in his own organisation until people started nbringing lawsuits.

[Nearly Sane]

Consider this:

Yes, he was not in charge for most of the period during which this was going on, but, he must have known about it. you're not going to convince me that the CEO of the Post Office didn't know what what going on in his own organisation until people started nbringing lawsuits.

And the issues had been raised long before this. I knew about it it in 2014.

[jeremyp]

'Post Office lied and threatened BBC over Horizon whistleblower'.
I feel the BBC is in part readying a position that they did everything they could as investigative journalism in case questions are asked about it needing a drama to get anything done. We may soon be running out of people who can ask questions.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

Two Panorama programmes and a series on Radio 4. I don't really think you can claim the BBC wasn't pulling its weight.

[Nearly Sane]

Two Panorama programmes and a series on Radio 4. I don't really think you can claim the BBC wasn't pulling its weight.

I think that anyoneserious  involved in journalism will be asking themselves if they did enough given the length of time that it took, and it needed a dramatisation to really get action.

 I agree with you that the BBC were at the forefront of what was done. The ongoing questions around its funding though means I think it is currently, and could be seen in the article linked, making sure that it be seen to have done that.

[Nearly Sane]

.

[Dicky Underpants]

Scary, compulsive viewing from the enquiry with Stephen Bradshaw, Post Office investigator, being questioned.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67941754

Indeed. A hypocritical, heartless Anglican priest* at the helm, and a Scouse thug to do the dirty work.
*Like the historical pirate comparison, btw.