UK election 2024

[SteveH]

Losing faith in politicians equals Tory governments in perpuity IMHO.

Online acronyms are bloody annoying, IMHOTEP.

[Nearly Sane]

Poll tracking


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68079726

[Nearly Sane]

'The Tory cigarette rebellion will likely go up in smoke'. I think will certainly fail but the 'change' and legacy of Sunak are shockingly meagre.

https://archive.vn/ZDR5s

[SqueakyVoice]

Risk! back and Risky.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68209330

Opposition parties attack Rishi Sunak over £1,000 Rwanda bet

https://www.begambleaware.org/signs-of-gambling-harms
The most common signs are feelings of guilt, trying to win back losses and hiding gambling.

[Nearly Sane]

Risk! back and Risky.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68209330

What a prick!

[Nearly Sane]

Obviously when wondering who to vote for, one uses the best information about what they do when they have power. This does not encourage me to vote Labour.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68211110

[Aruntraveller]

Extrapolating from an individual case inevitably misses the wider picture no matter how harrowing that case is.

Wales has long-standing issues that are not addressed by the current funding formula:

https://www.nhsconfed.org/articles/can-we-make-direct-comparisons-between-nhs-england-and-wales

I would draw people's attention to this particular section:

It is true that some metrics suggest the NHS in Wales is struggling compared to England – both overall pathways on the waiting list as a proportion of the population and the number of patients in long-wait cohorts, such as 78 and 104-week waiters, are higher in Wales.

However, the disproportionate effect of the older, less healthy, more deprived population in Wales cannot be underestimated in terms of the impact on the demand on health and care services. 

Furthermore, direct comparisons of performance data does not take into account policy priorities (for example, focusing efforts on the longest waiters versus those with greatest clinical need).

Ultimately, data is collected, counted, coded and reported differently between the two nations. Performance measures in each country were also brought in at different times with services likely to be at different stages of rollout. This means performance is not directly comparable  and to give as accurate a picture as possible, every effort should be made to examine the context when making comparisons.

[ProfessorDavey]

Obviously when wondering who to vote for, one uses the best information about what they do when they have power. This does not encourage me to vote Labour.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68211110

Health is a devolved matter, so in Scotland controlled by the Scottish Government not the UK Government - so why should the state of healthcare provision in Wales (even ignoring the obvious that one case isn't necessarily instructive) be relevant unless Labour are planning to change that devolved status, which I don't believe they are.

But then you seem to continually find reasons not to vote Labour NS, so this current strawman argument is hardly surprising.

[Aruntraveller]

Health is a devolved matter, so in Scotland controlled by the Scottish Government not the UK Government - so why should the state of healthcare provision in Wales (even ignoring the obvious that one case isn't necessarily instructive) be relevant unless Labour are planning to change that devolved status, which I don't believe they are.

But then you seem to continually find reasons not to vote Labour NS, so this current strawman argument is hardly surprising.

Prof D,

I don't quite understand your argument. NS is arguing that as health is devolved and if you look at the record in Wales then Labour aren't doing very well. I've posted as to why I think this is mistaken but I can't see your point I'm afraid.

[ProfessorDavey]

Prof D,

I don't quite understand your argument. NS is arguing that as health is devolved and if you look at the record in Wales then Labour aren't doing very well. I've posted as to why I think this is mistaken but I can't see your point I'm afraid.

But this thread is about the UK election - sure this point would be valid if the thread were about elections to the devolved assemblies, but it isn't. Labour will not be in charge of health in Scotland unless they win a Holyrood election, regardless of whether they win a UK general election.

[Nearly Sane]

Health is a devolved matter, so in Scotland controlled by the Scottish Government not the UK Government - so why should the state of healthcare provision in Wales (even ignoring the obvious that one case isn't necessarily instructive) be relevant unless Labour are planning to change that devolved status, which I don't believe they are.

But then you seem to continually find reasons not to vote Labour NS, so this current strawman argument is hardly surprising.

Aruntraveller got the point so I'll refer you to his explanation. Your mind reading skills seem on a par with your actual rwading skills. I'd love to vote Labour with a happy heart. They just aren't making it easy.

[Nearly Sane]

But this thread is about the UK election - sure this point would be valid if the thread were about elections to the devolved assemblies, but it isn't. Labour will not be in charge of health in Scotland unless they win a Holyrood election, regardless of whether they win a UK general election.

And yet my vote in the UK election may affect the running of the health service in England, and I'd like to be able to vote with a clean conscience.

[Nearly Sane]

Extrapolating from an individual case inevitably misses the wider picture no matter how harrowing that case is.

Wales has long-standing issues that are not addressed by the current funding formula:

https://www.nhsconfed.org/articles/can-we-make-direct-comparisons-between-nhs-england-and-wales

I would draw people's attention to this particular section:

I'm not arguing that the anyone else is likely to do any better. The health services in the UK are a mess, and I don't see any evidence that Labour will make it better. For a long time I got annoyed that political parties had become too managerial, now ir's more that they are awful managerially.

[Aruntraveller]

I'm not arguing that the anyone else is likely to do any better. The health services in the UK are a mess, and I don't see any evidence that Labour will make it better. For a long time I got annoyed that political parties had become too managerial, now ir's more that they are awful managerially.

Possibly. But you have 14 years of solid evidence of what the Tories will do. You have previous experience of what Labour would do (up to 2010) and even though that was not perfect I know which I would prefer. Whether Labour would have the money, imagination and expertise to turn the NHS around is up for debate but I'm willing to take a punt that it really could not get any worse and will in all probability get somewhat better.

PS voting with a clean conscience is, and always has been, a lost cause. Go for the least-worst option.

[Nearly Sane]

Possibly. But you have 14 years of solid evidence of what the Tories will do. You have previous experience of what Labour would do (up to 2010) and even though that was not perfect I know which I would prefer. Whether Labour would have the money, imagination and expertise to turn the NHS around is up for debate but I'm willing to take a punt that it really could not get any worse and will in all probability get somewhat better.

PS voting with a clean conscience is, and always has been, a lost cause. Go for the least-worst option.

If the individual candidate does not believe in women's sex based rights, and is not willing to state that openly and clearly then I won't vote for them.

[SqueakyVoice]

What a prick!

Don't worry Prick! Sunak is trying to row back on his bet now.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/06/rishi-sunak-rows-back-rwanda-bet-piers-morgan

[Nearly Sane]

Don't worry Prick! Sunak is is trying to row back on his bet now.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/06/rishi-sunak-rows-back-rwanda-bet-piers-morgan

Outfoxed by Piers Morgan, obvious credentials for PM

[Nearly Sane]

Kwasi Kwarteng to stand down at election. My heart is broken.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-68214536

[jeremyp]

Obviously when wondering who to vote for, one uses the best information about what they do when they have power. This does not encourage me to vote Labour.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68211110

And you think the Tories will take better care of the NHS in England* based on an incident that happened in Wales under a different Labour administration to the one that would take control in Westminster?

*Scotland's NHS being run by the SNP government at the moment.

[Nearly Sane]

And you think the Tories will take better care of the NHS in England* based on an incident that happened in Wales under a different Labour administration to the one that would take control in Westminster?

*Scotland's NHS being run by the SNP government at the moment.

No, didn't say that..

[jeremyp]

No, didn't say that..

I'm not quite sure what your point is then.

Administrations can be competent or incompetent but I'm not aware that competence and political ideology are necessarily related.

An incompetent Labour administration may damage the NHS in England, but I fear that a competent Tory administration would deliberately destroy it.

Anyway, you must vote with your conscience. If you have red lines and some Labour policies are on the wrong side of those red lines, then don't vote for them. However, I suggest "the Welsh Labour Party can't run a health service" should not be one of your red lines in a UK election.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not quite sure what your point is then.

Administrations can be competent or incompetent but I'm not aware that competence and political ideology are necessarily related.

An incompetent Labour administration may damage the NHS in England, but I fear that a competent Tory administration would deliberately destroy it.

Anyway, you must vote with your conscience. If you have red lines and some Labour policies are on the wrong side of those red lines, then don't vote for them. However, I suggest "the Welsh Labour Party can't run a health service" should not be one of your red lines in a UK election.

And since I didn't say it was a red line...And was explicit about a different red line

But voting for a party that means well but can't deliver is hardly a joy.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm not quite sure what your point is then.

Administrations can be competent or incompetent but I'm not aware that competence and political ideology are necessarily related.

An incompetent Labour administration may damage the NHS in England, but I fear that a competent Tory administration would deliberately destroy it.

Anyway, you must vote with your conscience. If you have red lines and some Labour policies are on the wrong side of those red lines, then don't vote for them. However, I suggest "the Welsh Labour Party can't run a health service" should not be one of your red lines in a UK election.

I'd agree with that - and of course a UK Labour administration, should one be formed after the general election, won't be the same as the Labour administration in Wales. Accordingly you cannot simply map one to the other on the basis of if the Welsh Labour administration is incompetent, then so must a future Labour UK administration.

I wonder whether NS is consistent - for example in suggesting that just because a local council run by the SNP might be useless then so must an SNP administration in Holyrood.

[Nearly Sane]

I'd agree with that - and of course a UK Labour administration, should one be formed after the general election, won't be the same as the Labour administration in Wales. Accordingly you cannot simply map one to the other on the basis of if the Welsh Labour administration is incompetent, then so must a future Labour UK administration.

I wonder whether NS is consistent - for example in suggesting that just because a local council run by the SNP might be useless then so must an SNP administration in Holyrood.

I'm not saying it's definitive proof but it's better evidence than party promises. As to the SNP, odd question given I have the evidence of the incompetent administration at Holyrood but yes, I would regard the incompetent admin in Glasgow as evidence against them being likely to be competent in Holyrood.

[Nearly Sane]

If it were done when tis done then twere well it werev done in a bit of a guddle over a number of weeks


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68232133