6 Nations Rugby Men and Women 2024

[Nearly Sane]

A new generation for the men with retirals and Farrell and Dupont not playing


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68129785

[SqueakyVoice]

6RUN
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/feb/02/six-nations-2024-predictions-our-writers-on-who-will-win-and-why
Some think England will, but I doubt it.
1 France
2 Ireland
3 England
4 Scots
5 Wales
6 still Italy (unfortunately)

[Nearly Sane]

1 France
2 England
3 Ireland
4 Wales
5 Scotland
6 Italy

[Nearly Sane]

1 France
2 England
3 Ireland
4 Wales
5 Scotland
6 Italy

Looking gone already with this from Ireland

[Nearly Sane]

Odd match between Italy and England. Not sure if Italy have unproved that much since the World Cup.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68192563

[SqueakyVoice]

Odd match between Italy and England. Not sure if Italy have unproved that much since the World Cup.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68192563

England's mentally  seems ro be to do good enough. They accelerated quickly in the 2nd half and after scoring more than enough, they took their foot off again. If they'd kept that pressure on, at least the other nations would be checking behind their backs.

[Nearly Sane]

England's mentally  seems ro be to do good enough. They accelerated quickly in the 2nd half and after scoring more than enough, they took their foot off again. If they'd kept that pressure on, at least the other nations would be checking behind their backs.

I think that type of mentality just doesn't work against good teams.

[jeremyp]

I think we might as well hand the trophy to Ireland now.

[Nearly Sane]

I think we might as well hand the trophy to Ireland now.

It certainly looks that way. Coming so soon after the World Cup disappointment, I wonder how much a Grand Slam, it it occurs, will feel devalued for the Irish, 'just another Grand Slam'.

With Dupont off looking for an Olympic Gold in the 7s, the Six Nations is feeling more mundane.

[jeremyp]

the Six Nations is feeling more mundane.

Well, it's the one straight after the World Cup. The deciding match has probably already happened and for five of the six nations, the weekend was a profound disappointment.

[ProfessorDavey]

It certainly looks that way. Coming so soon after the World Cup disappointment, I wonder how much a Grand Slam, it it occurs, will feel devalued for the Irish, 'just another Grand Slam'.

With Dupont off looking for an Olympic Gold in the 7s, the Six Nations is feeling more mundane.

The format is well past its sell by date and it certainly looks as if many teams are starting on a 4-year cycle of development leading up to the next world cup.

As for Ireland - sure if they win the 6 nations perhaps with a Grand Slam they'll celebrate, but frankly it won't come close to the disappointment of yet another world cup of underachievement. And actually that goes for all the 6 nations sides, not just Ireland - once again coming off badly second best when up against the better SH sides.

Was at the match in Cardiff on Saturday - usually go to one of the Wales matches as my wife is welsh and a rugby fan. Always a rather weird atmosphere and nothing like the hype of fervent knowledgable passionate welsh rugby fans singing their hearts out. Nope that is not the vibe whatsoever - the drinking seems to be the main event, even during the match.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think we might as well hand the trophy to Ireland now.

Another potentially great match ruined by a sending off, in my opinion.

Unlike football being a player down is pretty well always fatal for a side in a relatively well matched game. So if a player gets sent off relatively early in a match, basically time to go home, you know what the result is going to be.

I think the rugby authorities need to sort this out - once upon a time yellow and red cards were rare so few matches were ruined in this manner - now they seem to occur with monotonous regularity, ruining potentially good matches. There must be a better way - for example, what would be red card offence is punished with a penalty try, but the team retains 15 players (perhaps requiring the offending player to be substituted).

[jeremyp]

The format is well past its sell by date

That's nonsense. There's nothing wrong with the format, except Italy's inability to up their game.

and it certainly looks as if many teams are starting on a 4-year cycle of development leading up to the next world cup.

That's a bit charitable as far as Wales and England are concerned. I think they are just trying to build competitive teams for any competition.

As for Ireland - sure if they win the 6 nations perhaps with a Grand Slam they'll celebrate, but frankly it won't come close to the disappointment of yet another world cup of underachievement.

Agreed.

And actually that goes for all the 6 nations sides, not just Ireland - once again coming off badly second best when up against the better SH sides.

Looked at objectively, it's not as bad as you make it sound. Ireland beat the eventual champions and then lost a close match in the knockout phase. England ran South Africa close even though their side was, by consensus, pretty dreadful.

Was at the match in Cardiff on Saturday - usually go to one of the Wales matches as my wife is welsh and a rugby fan. Always a rather weird atmosphere and nothing like the hype of fervent knowledgable passionate welsh rugby fans singing their hearts out. Nope that is not the vibe whatsoever - the drinking seems to be the main event, even during the match.

Well Wales are in deep trouble. They have the strongest rugby tradition of all the 6N countries but the game in Wales is in crisis. I'm pretty sure the fans all know that.

[jeremyp]

Another potentially great match ruined by a sending off, in my opinion.

Unlike football being a player down is pretty well always fatal for a side in a relatively well matched game. So if a player gets sent off relatively early in a match, basically time to go home, you know what the result is going to be.

I think the rugby authorities need to sort this out - once upon a time yellow and red cards were rare so few matches were ruined in this manner - now they seem to occur with monotonous regularity, ruining potentially good matches. There must be a better way - for example, what would be red card offence is punished with a penalty try, but the team retains 15 players (perhaps requiring the offending player to be substituted).

In this case, the sending off was for two yellow card offences. But I agree that it ruined the game, particularly as it was the France number five.

There's a problem with the situation of cards in that the attempt to make the game safer means you can get a red card for something that was completely accidental. I don't really think that is acceptable.

[ProfessorDavey]

That's nonsense. There's nothing wrong with the format, except Italy's inability to up their game.

Nope - the format is non-sense.

1. Playing the same old sides year in, year out in a small league - yawn.
2. Having a format where some sides play 3 games at home and others 2.
3. Finishing anywhere other than top provides no benefit (e.g. qualification for some other higher level tournament), nor consequences (e.g. relegation) - meaning that once a side is unable/unlikely to win the tournament they frankly don't give a sh*t, using the final games as useful training exercises.
4. Playing the same old second string sides doesn't help develop NH teams (as we see again and again at the world cup) - what the NH sides need is not another yawn-fest 6 nations match against Scotland, or Ireland, but much more regular matches against the SH sides in a tournament that means something (and the Autumn internationals mean nothing and the Lions is just an acceptance that SH sides are better and doesn't help individual NH sides one iota).
5. A league structure with so few teams is really outdated unless it leads somewhere - the 6 nations would be much better if there was a knockout stage (and NH sides need much more experience in knockout matches if they are to be more successful in the world cup).

And that's why 6-Nations match days in Cardiff are all about the drinking and the 'event' rather than the rugby - the guy sat next to me missed about 30 mins of the match queuing at the bar, the guy the other side of me seemed to have no clue about the basic rules (kept saying 'err, what happened there to me') and the woman in front of me spent the whole match taking selfies.

[ProfessorDavey]

In this case, the sending off was for two yellow card offences. But I agree that it ruined the game, particularly as it was the France number five.

There's a problem with the situation of cards in that the attempt to make the game safer means you can get a red card for something that was completely accidental. I don't really think that is acceptable.

I understand why they've become much stricter, but it is ruining the game - watching 15 against 14 is rubbish.

At the match on Saturday you get a bit of a different perspective than watching it on the tv - when there is a set piece, particularly a scrum the discrepancy is achingly obvious - both sides have 8 player in the scrum, each with a scrum half in attendance. So stretched across the rest of the field one side have 6 players, the other just 5 and the gaping holes are obvious.

[ProfessorDavey]

Looked at objectively, it's not as bad as you make it sound. Ireland beat the eventual champions and then lost a close match in the knockout phase. England ran South Africa close even though their side was, by consensus, pretty dreadful.

Looked at objectively it was another abject failure for NH sides, to go along with 2019, 2015, 2011, 2007, 1999, 1995, 1991 and 1987.

Once again in 2023 we had the 6-nations sides failing to win a single knock-out stage game against the top tier (rugby championship) SH sides - and that includes Argentina.

[Nearly Sane]

And of course if you are Welsh, your star player buggered off to American Football - not even Rugby League.

[ProfessorDavey]

And of course if you are Welsh, your star player buggered off to American Football - not even Rugby League.

Indeed - interestingly that seemed to be the only rugby based topic of conversation either in the pub beforehand or during the match or afterwards. No comments on the potential new talent playing that afternoon. But I guess when there is so little interest at club level there won't be many people who have the faintest idea whether a new cap from Cardiff or a new cap from Newport Dragons is any good or not.

The contrast with football is huge - typically any potential new cap at international level for one of the UK teams is well known by the fans of that international side - simply because they'll have seen them play at club level - either at the ground itself or on the tv.

[jeremyp]

Nope - the format is non-sense.

The word is "nonsense". There's no hyphen.

1. Playing the same old sides year in, year out in a small league - yawn.

The tournament has been going since 1883 with only minor tweaks and the addition of two teams. It's rarely been described as boring. I suggest you are in a minority.

2. Having a format where some sides play 3 games at home and others 2.

Well it's an unavoidable flaw given that there are currently an even number of teams in the tournament and there is no desire to stretch it into home and away games.

3. Finishing anywhere other than top provides no benefit (e.g. qualification for some other higher level tournament), nor consequences (e.g. relegation) - meaning that once a side is unable/unlikely to win the tournament they frankly don't give a sh*t, using the final games as useful training exercises.

Nonsense. 

4. Playing the same old second string sides doesn't help develop NH teams (as we see again and again at the world cup) - what the NH sides need is not another yawn-fest 6 nations match against Scotland, or Ireland, but much more regular matches against the SH sides in a tournament that means something (and the Autumn internationals mean nothing and the Lions is just an acceptance that SH sides are better and doesn't help individual NH sides one iota).

It's not a yawn fest. You don't like it but that doesn't make you right.

5. A league structure with so few teams is really outdated unless it leads somewhere - the 6 nations would be much better if there was a knockout stage (and NH sides need much more experience in knockout matches if they are to be more successful in the world cup).

Nonsense.

And that's why 6-Nations match days in Cardiff are all about the drinking and the 'event' rather than the rugby - the guy sat next to me missed about 30 mins of the match queuing at the bar, the guy the other side of me seemed to have no clue about the basic rules (kept saying 'err, what happened there to me') and the woman in front of me spent the whole match taking selfies.

That is because, as I said, Wales are shit.

[jeremyp]

I understand why they've become much stricter, but it is ruining the game - watching 15 against 14 is rubbish.

Is often rubbish, you mean. For a counter example to your point, see England's opening match in the last RWC.

At the match on Saturday you get a bit of a different perspective than watching it on the tv - when there is a set piece, particularly a scrum the discrepancy is achingly obvious - both sides have 8 player in the scrum, each with a scrum half in attendance. So stretched across the rest of the field one side have 6 players, the other just 5 and the gaping holes are obvious.

It was in the match on Friday where a man was sent off.

[jeremyp]

Looked at objectively it was another abject failure for NH sides, to go along with 2019, 2015, 2011, 2007, 1999, 1995, 1991 and 1987.

Once again in 2023 we had the 6-nations sides failing to win a single knock-out stage game against the top tier (rugby championship) SH sides - and that includes Argentina.

For a scientist you are bit shit at looking at things objectively.

[SqueakyVoice]

I understand why they've become much stricter, but it is ruining the game - watching 15 against 14 is rubbish.

Do you want to ask the Argentinians that?
Penalty tries already exist. IMO Daley should have had a red card for his trip tackle. (Me v anti-Sarries again). Beyond that I can remember watching a warm up in 2015 and getting annoyed by the other Eng fans. That game had no alcohol in the stadium (the Paris venue). I have no idea if that's the same case now.

[ProfessorDavey]

For a scientist you are bit shit at looking at things objectively.

That's exactly what I am doing - looking at the objective records of the tier 1 nations (defined as those playing in either the 6 Nations or the Rugby Championship) in the World Cup.

I provides the data some while ago before the 2023 World Cup had concluded, but I can now update it:

World Cup winners:
SH - 9
NH - 1

Knock-out stage victories between rugby championship vs 6 nations match-ups (oh and this includes Argentina)
SH - 31
NH - 9

And this is, of course, not some kind of historical feature - it is ongoing as the data I've added for 2023 are:

World Cup winners:
SH - 1
NH - 0

Knock-out stage victories between rugby championship vs 6 nations match-ups (oh and this includes Argentina)
SH - 4
NH - 0

A particularly sh*t showing from the 6 Nations side this time out, but not out of kilter with previous tournaments and the overall record since 1987.

[ProfessorDavey]

Do you want to ask the Argentinians that?

The Argentina vs England match was kind of the exception that proves the rule.

So in the World Cup there have been 33 red cards, just 7 have been won by the side down to 14 players, but of those 7, all but two either occurred too late in the game to make a big difference (e.g. the 80th minute red card for Fiji against Canada) and/or were in uncompetitive matches (e.g. the South Africa red card against Uruguay).

With the exception of the game you mention every other 'competitive' match against top ranked sides where a red card has been show have ended up with the team with 15 players winning, including of course the 2023 final.

Penalty tries already exist.

I know - but I'm suggesting them as an alternative to permanently taking a team down to 14 players. Where-ever a red card offence occurs that player must be substituted and the other side is awarded a 7 point penalty try. Penalises both the player and the team but doesn't create the critical 15 plays 14 imbalance that ruins matches.