Author Topic: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.  (Read 16039 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #125 on: February 13, 2024, 08:43:13 AM »
Have you read any of the Old Testament? In it, the chief god wipes out almost all of humanity for being naughty. If that's not wrathful, what is?
To me, Jeremy, it’s a story. A sobering one. I read the beginning where mankind is in perfect communion with God and then chosen courses of action by mankind mean he is dealing with an altogether different sort of person and set of circumstances.

I don’t as a Christian, take all my cues in considering theology from the OT, you do.

As we now know though global calamity and extinction is part of the lot of mankind and that can be brought about by humanity on it’s own head.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #126 on: February 13, 2024, 09:21:10 AM »
I don’t as a Christian, take all my cues in considering theology from the OT, you do.
Then why do you adopt a different approach to the NT - neither is any more believable.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #127 on: February 13, 2024, 09:35:08 AM »
Then why do you adopt a different approach to the NT - neither is any more believable.
Argument from incredulity.
The new testament has God incarnate...the Christ, Professor, do you think that might have something to do with it?

Aruntraveller

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #128 on: February 13, 2024, 09:52:59 AM »
Quote
As we now know though global calamity and extinction is part of the lot of mankind and that can be brought about by humanity on it’s own head.

Quite.

I wish these heterosexuals would stop breeding.

Seems to me they are much more of a threat to the natural order of things than gay people.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #129 on: February 13, 2024, 09:55:35 AM »
Argument from incredulity.
The new testament has God incarnate...the Christ, Professor, do you think that might have something to do with it?
Circular argument - effectively the justification for believing it is ... err ... because you believe it.

And the OT also has god in it - indeed the very same god. Believing the OT but not the NT kind of makes sense but believing the NT but not the OT seems deeply faulty thinking to me as the NT claims make no sense without the OT god.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #130 on: February 13, 2024, 09:57:47 AM »
Quite.

I wish these heterosexuals would stop breeding.

Seems to me they are much more of a threat to the natural order of things than gay people.
I never thought I'd be giving the "talk" to a moderator of the RE forum but......Where do you think all the gay people come from?

jeremyp

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2024, 10:12:16 AM »
To me, Jeremy, it’s a story.
Yes it is. But it is a story about your god and one that your predecessor Christians thought fit to be in the Bible.

Quote
A sobering one. I read the beginning where mankind is in perfect communion with God and then chosen courses of action by mankind mean he is dealing with an altogether different sort of person and set of circumstances.
In the story, he wiped out all of humanity, even the new born babies. He also wiped out almost all of the other life on Earth. What did the cats do to annoy God so much.

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I don’t as a Christian, take all my cues in considering theology from the OT, you do.
But it's still there. It's still part of your Bible.
Quote
As we now know though global calamity and extinction is part of the lot of mankind and that can be brought about by humanity on it’s own head.
But it was God that brought the flood down on humanity's collective head.

It's not the only example of a wrathful god in your own holy book. There's the Egyptian plagues, the conquest of Canaan, the various wars that David indulged in, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you don't want outsiders portraying your god as a wrathfaul vengeful spiteful bastard, maybe you shouldn't have a holy book that portrays him as all of those things.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2024, 10:19:59 AM »
Vlad,

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Argument from incredulity.

Not even close.

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The new testament has God incarnate...the Christ, Professor, do you think that might have something to do with it?

So the OT tells us about a morally disgusting god. The NT then tells us that this morally disgusting god also sent his son to Earth to make a blood sacrifice so we could repent of the “sins” that result from how this morally disgusting god made us by abandoning our self-respect and "worshipping" the same morally disgusting god?

Well, if you really like that sort of thing I suppose… 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 10:35:57 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2024, 10:20:54 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
I never thought I'd be giving the "talk" to a moderator of the RE forum but......Where do you think all the gay people come from?

Brighton.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #134 on: February 13, 2024, 10:37:38 AM »
So I worship the part i’m trying to ignore? stumbling over your own hysterical rhetoric perhaps?
Nope. You are the one that wants to cut bits out of your holy book i.e. bowdlerise it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #135 on: February 13, 2024, 10:57:57 AM »
... What did the cats do to annoy God so much....


Look down on him

Aruntraveller

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2024, 11:02:35 AM »
I never thought I'd be giving the "talk" to a moderator of the RE forum but......Where do you think all the gay people come from?

Well aware of it.

But you have to admit all this going forth and multiplying has left us in a bit of a pickle and that is all down to you lascivious heterosexuals.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #137 on: February 14, 2024, 03:25:58 PM »
Yes it is. But it is a story about your god and one that your predecessor Christians thought fit to be in the Bible.
In the story, he wiped out all of humanity, even the new born babies. He also wiped out almost all of the other life on Earth. What did the cats do to annoy God so much.
Well, as story we’d have to look for metaphor and hyperbole I suppose. I think I’m right about a large scale post ice age flood which didn’t wipe out everything.
Physical death is not the end, that’s also in the bible.
Having been given the privilege of physical existence of the sentient variety do we actually have the absolute right for that do be maintained by God? Not sure though I think the atheist narrative might be “There these people were just minding their own business when this God thing appeared and ceased their existence”. The bible of course though states that death is not the end.
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But it's still there. It's still part of your Bible.But it was God that brought the flood down on humanity's collective head.

It's not the only example of a wrathful god in your own holy book. There's the Egyptian plagues, the conquest of Canaan, the various wars that David indulged in, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you don't want outsiders portraying your god as a wrathfaul vengeful spiteful bastard, maybe you shouldn't have a holy book that portrays him as all of those things.
Yes there is judgment and penalty just as there is in any literature generated about and by any world view. What, for instance are the Humanists going to do with people who break there rules when they hold the majority world view? In the Old Testament miraculous judgement figures highly but over a long period. In the New Testament not so much so we are dealing with rare interventions by God over a long period of time... because God as it says in the bible is slow to retribution.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 03:31:04 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #138 on: February 14, 2024, 03:28:34 PM »
Vlad,

Not even close.
He can’t believe it and admits it
Quote


Outrider

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #139 on: February 14, 2024, 03:40:09 PM »
Well, as story we’d have to look for metaphor and hyperbole I suppose.

Why? If you're giving instructions to (even one 'special select chosen group' of) humanity on how to save their immortal souls, why make the instruction book cryptic? Why not give straight instructions?

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I think I’m right about a large scale post ice age flood which didn’t wipe out everything.

The evidence doesn't suggest that you're right. Whilst there were a number of localised significant flooding events, there is no evidence for a singular massive post-ice age flooding event.

Quote
Physical death is not the end, that’s also in the bible.

But that contradicts the Baghavad Gita, which clearly indicates that we all get turned back out on the wheels of Karma. And they both contradict the Norse myths which say that the warriors get carted off to Valhalla. And then there's the Undying Lands where Gandalf and Frodo get to go, and don't get me started with Sto'Vo'Kor.

Quote
Having been given the privilege of physical existence of the sentient variety do we actually have the absolute right for that do be maintained by God?

Yes. You put people in the position where they could suffer, you have a moral duty to try to help them avoid that suffering. That's a duty on parents, it's a duty on employers, it's a duty on service providers, it's one of the underlying principles of civilised societies. Arguably, it's right there in 'love thy neighbour'...

Quote
Yes there is judgment and penalty just as there is in any literature generated about and by any world view.

But the punishments don't fit the crime, nor are they proportionate. Eternal punishment (of whatever variety) for a temporal crime is disproportionate. Death for being on the same planet as some people who didn't comply with arbitrary 'laws' on haircuts or sexual congress is unjustified, disproportionate and non-productive. That's even if you grant the notion of 'punishment' has validity against the intent of rehabilitation.

Quote
What, for instance are the Humanists going to do with people who break there rules when they hold the majority world view?

Try them and, if found guilty, determine what the most likely method of rehabilitating them is - if that's not viable, isolate them from the community so they can no longer harm people. Not, anywhere, in any way, shape or form, eradicate the entire populace of the Earth because of the actions of some (or even the majority). The idea of collective punishment is abhorrent when teaching primary children, it's even worse when it's lethal punishment for entire populations for things deemed 'wrong' on little to no justification.

Quote
In the Old Testament miraculous judgement figures highly but over a long period. In the New Testament not so much so we are dealing with rare interventions by God over a long period of time... because God as it says in the bible is slow to retribution.

Or, maybe, because people were less credulous and wanted to see evidence of these 'miraculous judgements' - and as the organisation of society improved and communication became improved so the ability to investigate these outlandish claims improved and suddenly the outlandish claims started to diminish...

O.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #140 on: February 14, 2024, 04:01:24 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
He can’t believe it and admits it

Wrong again. What he actually said was: "Then why do you adopt a different approach to the NT - neither is any more believable". Can you see where you went wrong here? Yes, he was questioning your different responses to the OT and the NT given that neither is more believable - or for that matter unbelievable - than the other one.

The argument from incredulity fallacy by the way is, "X stretches my personal credulity too far, therefore X is wrong" - a very different matter.   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #141 on: February 14, 2024, 04:14:14 PM »
Why? If you're giving instructions to (even one 'special select chosen group' of) humanity on how to save their immortal souls, why make the instruction book cryptic? Why not give straight instructions?

The evidence doesn't suggest that you're right. Whilst there were a number of localised significant flooding events, there is no evidence for a singular massive post-ice age flooding event.

But that contradicts the Baghavad Gita, which clearly indicates that we all get turned back out on the wheels of Karma. And they both contradict the Norse myths which say that the warriors get carted off to Valhalla. And then there's the Undying Lands where Gandalf and Frodo get to go, and don't get me started with Sto'Vo'Kor.

Yes. You put people in the position where they could suffer, you have a moral duty to try to help them avoid that suffering. That's a duty on parents, it's a duty on employers, it's a duty on service providers, it's one of the underlying principles of civilised societies. Arguably, it's right there in 'love thy neighbour'...

But the punishments don't fit the crime, nor are they proportionate. Eternal punishment (of whatever variety) for a temporal crime is disproportionate. Death for being on the same planet as some people who didn't comply with arbitrary 'laws' on haircuts or sexual congress is unjustified, disproportionate and non-productive. That's even if you grant the notion of 'punishment' has validity against the intent of rehabilitation.

Try them and, if found guilty, determine what the most likely method of rehabilitating them is - if that's not viable, isolate them from the community so they can no longer harm people. Not, anywhere, in any way, shape or form, eradicate the entire populace of the Earth because of the actions of some (or even the majority). The idea of collective punishment is abhorrent when teaching primary children, it's even worse when it's lethal punishment for entire populations for things deemed 'wrong' on little to no justification.

Or, maybe, because people were less credulous and wanted to see evidence of these 'miraculous judgements' - and as the organisation of society improved and communication became improved so the ability to investigate these outlandish claims improved and suddenly the outlandish claims started to diminish...

O.
I think any discussion of Bhagavad Gita might be more appropriate on the Hindu board since it is non sequitur to a discussion on what the Bible “says” or doesn’t.

Outrider

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #142 on: February 14, 2024, 04:28:42 PM »
I think any discussion of Bhagavad Gita might be more appropriate on the Hindu board since it is non sequitur to a discussion on what the Bible “says” or doesn’t.

If the point were relevant to the content you'd be right, but if the point is about the plethora of magical stories, and which (if any) should be given any credence... not so much.

O.
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jeremyp

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #143 on: February 14, 2024, 04:38:32 PM »
Well, as story we’d have to look for metaphor and hyperbole I suppose. I think I’m right about a large scale post ice age flood which didn’t wipe out everything.
It's not a question of whether the story talks about real events out not. It is how your god is portrayed in your holy book. If you don't want people to draw the conclusion that he is a vicious vindictive bastard, you shouldn't have literature that says he is.
Quote
Physical death is not the end, that’s also in the bible.
Having been given the privilege of physical existence of the sentient variety do we actually have the absolute right for that do be maintained by God? Not sure though I think the atheist narrative might be “There these people were just minding their own business when this God thing appeared and ceased their existence”. The bible of course though states that death is not the end.
All the people God saw fit to murder are in heaven with him are they?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2024, 04:56:40 PM »
Vlad,

Wrong again. What he actually said was: "Then why do you adopt a different approach to the NT - neither is any more believable". Can you see where you went wrong here? Yes, he was questioning your different responses to the OT and the NT given that neither is more believable - or for that matter unbelievable - than the other one.
That quote was from me so perhaps I can elaborate. My point wasn't about whether I or Vlad actually believe in the OT claims or the NT claims, but about the double standards. Both are contained in ancient texts, both contain extraordinary claims, neither are backed up by any meaningful corroboratory independent evidence. So my point is why does Vlad accept the claims of the NT, but reject many of the claims of the OT - that seems to be rank double standards. But then Vlad let the cat out of the bag in reply 127 - Vlad believes in the NT because he ... err ... believes in it.

jeremyp

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #145 on: February 15, 2024, 08:39:00 AM »
That quote was from me so perhaps I can elaborate. My point wasn't about whether I or Vlad actually believe in the OT claims or the NT claims, but about the double standards. Both are contained in ancient texts, both contain extraordinary claims, neither are backed up by any meaningful corroboratory independent evidence. So my point is why does Vlad accept the claims of the NT, but reject many of the claims of the OT - that seems to be rank double standards. But then Vlad let the cat out of the bag in reply 127 - Vlad believes in the NT because he ... err ... believes in it.

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Spud

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #146 on: February 16, 2024, 09:48:22 AM »
Yes it is. But it is a story about your god and one that your predecessor Christians thought fit to be in the Bible.
In the story, he wiped out all of humanity, even the new born babies. He also wiped out almost all of the other life on Earth. What did the cats do to annoy God so much.
But it's still there. It's still part of your Bible.But it was God that brought the flood down on humanity's collective head.

It's not the only example of a wrathful god in your own holy book. There's the Egyptian plagues, the conquest of Canaan, the various wars that David indulged in, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you don't want outsiders portraying your god as a wrathfaul vengeful spiteful bastard, maybe you shouldn't have a holy book that portrays him as all of those things.
Mankind deserves immediate judgment just because of sin, but God preserved a faithful remnant through whom his Son would eventually be born, who would overcome sin and save all those who repent.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #147 on: February 16, 2024, 09:49:57 AM »
Mankind deserves immediate judgment just because of sin, but God preserved a faithful remnant through whom his Son would eventually be born, who would overcome sin and save all those who repent.
You worship a homophobic genocidal monster, no wonder you like Putin

Aruntraveller

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #148 on: February 16, 2024, 10:06:41 AM »
*Wanders off thinking*

God missed a trick. He, or she, should really have made stupidity a sin.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #149 on: February 16, 2024, 10:39:37 AM »
Spud,

Quote
Mankind deserves immediate judgment just because of sin, but God preserved a faithful remnant through whom his Son would eventually be born, who would overcome sin and save all those who repent.

So a god made us the way we are, then set up a set of rules the transgression of which “He” called “sins”, then decided we should be “punished” for playing out our nature as “He” created it, then impregnated an underage Palestinian girl in order to create a son whom "He'd" already planned to die later in a brutal blood sacrifice - but to be dead only for a bit. And the "good news" is that, no matter how many of these “sins” we commit in the only life we observably have, provided we abandon our self-respect and genuflect to this man/god we get a free pass to “Heaven”. But people who live blameless lives and don't bend the knee don't get the same free pass. Or something.

Oh, and there’s no evidence for any of this.     

And you actually believe this unhinged and morally repugnant drivel to be true?

Seriously though?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2024, 10:46:47 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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