Author Topic: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.  (Read 17225 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #275 on: February 20, 2024, 02:49:24 PM »
The Catholic line is that homosexuality is "contrary to the natural law". Numerous papers have documented homosexual activity in over a thousand species fundamentally countering that assertion.

O.
To which the Catholics might reply that while it is found in other species and therefore it is natural for them, it isn't natural for humans.

Over to you.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #276 on: February 20, 2024, 02:51:56 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I would move that any distaste or dislike of any aspect of homosexuality constitutes homophobia.

What seems to be happening is that posters are considering their level of dislike and moving the boundaries of homophobia so they fall outside it.

What then do you say constitutes homophobia?

You can “move” anything you like, but the “No” still stands.

Again: I have a distaste for beetroot, but I’m also indifferent to those who indulge their taste for the stuff. That doesn’t make me “beetroot-eater-phobic” though.

Clear now?
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #277 on: February 20, 2024, 02:54:23 PM »
To which the Catholics might reply that while it is found in other species and therefore it is natural for them, it isn't natural for humans.

Over to you.
Well, since we've switched back to Catholicism, what is the 'natural' justification for celibacy?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #278 on: February 20, 2024, 02:58:45 PM »
To which the Catholics might reply that while it is found in other species and therefore it is natural for them, it isn't natural for humans.
Sounds like special pleading to me - so it would be straight back with 'why is it un-natural in one species but not in another?. Onus on those making the claim (that something natural in one species isn't in another species) to justify that claim.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #279 on: February 20, 2024, 02:59:26 PM »
Vlad,

You can “move” anything you like, but the “No” still stands.

Again: I have a distaste for beetroot, but I’m also indifferent to those who indulge their taste for the stuff. That doesn’t make me “beetroot-eater-phobic” though.

Clear now?
Yes....You don't like Beetroot.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #280 on: February 20, 2024, 03:03:29 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Yes....You don't like Beetroot.

You missed the next part - and the point. I don't like beetroot, AND... that does NOT therefore make me beetroot-eater-phobic.

Surely that's clear now isn't it?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #281 on: February 20, 2024, 03:04:49 PM »
Sounds like special pleading to me - so it would be straight back with 'why is it un-natural in one species but not in another?. Onus on those making the claim (that something natural in one species isn't in another species) to justify that claim.
It could be special pleading but they could come back and quote arthropod species that kill and bite the heads of their sexual partners, something natural for them but reprehensible for us. It's not then just that the Catholic answer doesn't stack up but Outriders doesn't seem to either.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #282 on: February 20, 2024, 03:27:53 PM »
Well, since we've switched back to Catholicism, what is the 'natural' justification for celibacy?
Not a Catholic Dicky but you've just set up my comedic reply..."Fuck all".
« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 03:30:16 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Outrider

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #283 on: February 20, 2024, 04:05:40 PM »
To which the Catholics might reply that while it is found in other species and therefore it is natural for them, it isn't natural for humans.

Over to you.

To which the response would be - on what basis do you consider us to be different? If we aren't using the entirety of the rest of nature as a guide to what is 'natural law', what are we using?

It could be special pleading but they could come back and quote arthropod species that kill and bite the heads of their sexual partners, something natural for them but reprehensible for us.

Violence is not 'unnatural' for humans, it's something that we've developed social and moral rules against. Indeed, huge swathes of 'natural' activity would appear to be socially 'off-limits'.

O.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #284 on: February 20, 2024, 04:37:48 PM »
To which the Catholics might reply that while it is found in other species and therefore it is natural for them, it isn't natural for humans.

Over to you.

I'm here to tell you it is.

Over to you.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #285 on: February 20, 2024, 05:36:52 PM »
I'm here to tell you it is.

Over to you.
Nope, You've made the positive assertion so it stays with you. All I'm saying is that Outrider's reasoning is faulty.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #286 on: February 20, 2024, 05:38:52 PM »
No he isn't. He's talking nonsense to peddle a pedantic point of view.
So lets add ad populum to the list of fallacies that are raining down on this thread.

It's nothing to do with pedantry. He remains correct. Sometimes it's good to go back to basics to remind ourselves of certain matters. In this case, Thomas Henry Huxley's classic and indeed original words about Agnosticism: "Humankind can have no knowledge, except of phenomena". The phenomenal world is all that we can know. There are various claims made about the supernatural world, but we can never know that they are true. Most persistent religious beliefs arise because of certain observations about the natural world. NS's suggestion that the world could have been made by a psychopathic nutjob has formed the basis of certain religions and arises from the very obvious fact that the world is replete with undeserved suffering, (and the God of some of the OT is depicted as behaving as if he were the said deranged sadistic monster - and so does some of the NT). The basis of Gnosticism depends on such perceptions. Christianity's response to the world's suffering is that we're being tested here, and that those who "play by the rules of the game" will have everything made good for them. None of these beliefs can ever be proved .  They are supernatural claims, and are on a completely separate level from those made about the phenomenal world. As such, your conflating NS's hypothetical suggestion (in which he does not believe) with the idea of that the earth is flat is demonstrably in error. We can prove the world is not flat; we can prove that the moon is not made of green cheese, and we can prove that little boys are not made of slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails.

As for your comments about the ad populum fallacy:  I had suspected as I was typing my post that some inattentive reader might accuse me of falling into that. I did not suspect that the said inattentive reader would be you.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 05:42:22 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #287 on: February 20, 2024, 06:05:21 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Nope, You've made the positive assertion so it stays with you. All I'm saying is that Outrider's reasoning is faulty.

You don't get just to say it - you need to demonstrate it. What failure in reasoning do you think you've found?
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #288 on: February 20, 2024, 07:11:30 PM »
Nope, You've made the positive assertion so it stays with you. All I'm saying is that Outrider's reasoning is faulty.

Oh sorry. I see your mistake.

You hadn't realised I was quoting from the gospel of Trentvoyager.


Therein the Rev. Edgar Wield makes it clear that far from being unnatural it is a natural variation of sexuality witnessed throughout the animal kingdom, of which homo sapiens are members, of course.

It is also understood from his writings that there is no compulsion for everyone to take part, so if you wish to refrain you can so do.

In other words you do not have to worship at the priapic altar.

Those who do wish to worship at said altar should be free from persecution, discrimination and threats of violence either physical or non-physical and free to pursue their concupiscent ways.

The very act of concupiscence is, of course, a full homage to heterosexuals who worship at an altogether more lascivious altar and as has been shown in the gospel according to St. Monibot are in danger of snuffing out the very life they create by their licentious acts of breeding.



 

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #289 on: February 20, 2024, 07:39:01 PM »
Oh sorry. I see your mistake.

You hadn't realised I was quoting from the gospel of Trentvoyager.


Therein the Rev. Edgar Wield makes it clear that far from being unnatural it is a natural variation of sexuality witnessed throughout the animal kingdom, of which homo sapiens are members, of course.

It is also understood from his writings that there is no compulsion for everyone to take part, so if you wish to refrain you can so do.

In other words you do not have to worship at the priapic altar.

Those who do wish to worship at said altar should be free from persecution, discrimination and threats of violence either physical or non-physical and free to pursue their concupiscent ways.

The very act of concupiscence is, of course, a full homage to heterosexuals who worship at an altogether more lascivious altar and as has been shown in the gospel according to St. Monibot are in danger of snuffing out the very life they create by their licentious acts of breeding.
I think you are continuing what is known as the naturalistic fallacy whereby one appeals to that seen in nature to explain human behaviour. What undermines it are the behaviours and traits and characteristics observed in nature not seen in human behaviour...in short Trent, it's bollocks as is most talk of some kind of natural order.

I tend to take the Grainger approach to the matter.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #290 on: February 20, 2024, 07:39:15 PM »
Oh sorry. I see your mistake.

You hadn't realised I was quoting from the gospel of Trentvoyager.


Therein the Rev. Edgar Wield makes it clear that far from being unnatural it is a natural variation of sexuality witnessed throughout the animal kingdom, of which homo sapiens are members, of course.

It is also understood from his writings that there is no compulsion for everyone to take part, so if you wish to refrain you can so do.

In other words you do not have to worship at the priapic altar.

Those who do wish to worship at said altar should be free from persecution, discrimination and threats of violence either physical or non-physical and free to pursue their concupiscent ways.

The very act of concupiscence is, of course, a full homage to heterosexuals who worship at an altogether more lascivious altar and as has been shown in the gospel according to St. Monibot are in danger of snuffing out the very life they create by their licentious acts of breeding.
The Fat Man agrees

Nearly Sane

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #291 on: February 20, 2024, 07:42:33 PM »
I think you are continuing what is known as the naturalistic fallacy whereby one appeals to that seen in nature to explain human behaviour. What undermines it are the behaviours and traits and characteristics observed in nature not seen in human behaviour...in short Trent, it's bollocks as is most talk of some kind of natural order.

I tend to take the Grainger approach to the matter.
The naturalustic fallacy is not the same as the appeal to nature fallacy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #292 on: February 20, 2024, 07:51:38 PM »
The naturalustic fallacy is not the same as the appeal to nature fallacy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
You are right, My mistake.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #293 on: February 20, 2024, 08:02:25 PM »
You are right, My mistake.
And Aruntraveller isn't using either. I think this is similar to the mistake earlier when Sriram appeared to be using the appeal to nature fallacy but wasn't, and then thought people pointing out the flaws in the appeal to nature fallacy were actually using it.

In mentioning the phrase 'natural law' people seem to have taken it as the appeal to nature, it isn't.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law


When they are pointing out the fallacy, you then take it as if they are making it. They aren't.


Natural law is, in full technical terms, stinking pish.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #294 on: February 20, 2024, 08:58:03 PM »
Quote
I think you are continuing what is known as the naturalistic fallacy whereby one appeals to that seen in nature to explain human behaviour.

Nay lad.

It is the gospel.

It must be true.

You aren't allowed to question it or disagree.

Them's the rulez. We saw them laid down earlier by the Rt. Hon AB of this parish. Example:

Quote
The holy sacrament of marriage is defined in the bible as the union of a man and a woman and is not open to re interpretation to comply with modern secular societies' views.



Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #295 on: February 20, 2024, 09:21:59 PM »
Nay lad.

It is the gospel.

It must be true.

You aren't allowed to question it or disagree.

Them's the rulez. We saw them laid down earlier by the Rt. Hon AB of this parish. Example:
Is there a Four Yorkshiremen of The Apocalypse sketch?

Burn in 'ell for a' eternity, lad?


Luxury

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #296 on: February 21, 2024, 06:31:46 AM »
And Aruntraveller isn't using either. I think this is similar to the mistake earlier when Sriram appeared to be using the appeal to nature fallacy but wasn't, and then thought people pointing out the flaws in the appeal to nature fallacy were actually using it.

In mentioning the phrase 'natural law' people seem to have taken it as the appeal to nature, it isn't.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law


When they are pointing out the fallacy, you then take it as if they are making it. They aren't.


Natural law is, in full technical terms, stinking pish.
No, there's a definite appeal to nature here,from Professor Davey, Outrider and Aruntraveller that can't be turdpolished away.

I agree that "natural law" probably is bollocks and the term "natural" seems to be a movable feast.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #297 on: February 21, 2024, 08:40:05 AM »
No, there's a definite appeal to nature here,from Professor Davey, Outrider and Aruntraveller that can't be turdpolished away.

I agree that "natural law" probably is bollocks and the term "natural" seems to be a movable feast.

I won't have this blasphemy.

It is in the gospel. It is non-negotiable.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Outrider

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #298 on: February 21, 2024, 08:59:05 AM »
I think you are continuing what is known as the naturalistic fallacy whereby one appeals to that seen in nature to explain human behaviour.

If the Catholic church makes the argument that homosexuality is in some way 'unnatural', how does showing that it's in fact something that occurs broadly in the natural world 'the naturalistic fallacy'? It's not making a claim to justify an assertion, it's countering a claim by showing that what it says is invalid.

Quote
What undermines it are the behaviours and traits and characteristics observed in nature not seen in human behaviour...

Migration? Hibernation? What behaviours and traits in nature that humanity doesn't display have a bearing on whether homosexuality is part of a normal diversity of sexual behaviour within homo sapiens?

Quote
in short Trent, it's bollocks as is most talk of some kind of natural order.

Again, you've failed to make an actual argument, and just tried to assert that you're right.

Quote
I tend to take the Grainger approach to the matter.

From their website, the Grainger approach seems to be "Our risk management framework is designed to identify the principal risks to our business and ensure that they are being appropriately monitored, suitable controls are in place and the required actions have clear ownership and accountability." I don't see the relevance.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Professor Rosaria Butterfield gives a powerful and brave speech to students.
« Reply #299 on: February 21, 2024, 09:27:46 AM »
I won't have this blasphemy.

It is in the gospel. It is non-negotiable.
That would be an ecumenical matter.