Author Topic: Putting an end to scientism  (Read 3031 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2024, 10:33:46 AM »
Vlad,

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No I mean scientism.
I have no beef with methodological naturalism or methodological reductionism, only claims that science is the only means of describing or defining reality.

That’s not the claim though. The actual claim is that “science” (ie, a method that rests on reason, logic, evidence etc) is the only known means of “describing or defining reality” because no other claimed means of doing that (“faith” for example) is verifiable.   

By the way – just out of interest have you ever, ever actually encountered an advocate for scientism? I know you use it frequently as a straw man here, but you’ve never shown us someone who actually argued for it. Why is that?



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Since you apparently can't name an example of the type of reductionism I am criticising let me help you out.

Shifting the burden of proof doesn’t help you here. You introduced the accusation of reductionism so it’s your job to give examples of it, not mine.

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An example is Dennett's reductionism of Consciousness. His reduction here is to state it as merely an illusion and not a thing at all.

That’s not what he says – the “illusion” is still a “thing”, but in any case what then do you think he thereby reduced from? Souls? Consciousness pixies? What? 

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Your starting point would seem to be that we have to prove that consciousness exists because all we can observe is computing and it's hardware. Thus the illusion of consciousness is really complex intelligence.

My “starting point” is that if we’re to claim that anything exists then we need evidence to justify the claim. It’s not difficult.

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Your fault Hillside is to both talk about things having emerged while what has emerged doesn't actually exist. A most egregious example of cake-ism.

What was this hopeless gibberish supposed to mean?

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Own it and stop referring to emergence.

I’m not about to “own” your straw man, and what’s wrong with referring to emergence – it’s a well understood and documented phenomenon?

You’re very confused about this. 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2024, 10:42:11 AM »
Vlad,

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Your manifest error here is to mistake the philosophy with the method.

He didn’t do that.

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Yes science can tell us what exists physically and that physicality might well be real but it cannot be shown to define reality.

Nor does it claim to, at least not in an absolute sense. That’s why its strongest claims about the nature of reality are called “theories”. Why do you think straw manning science is helping you here?

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While you were trying then to outline the shortcomings of other people and other domains and magisterial…

He didn’t do that – he just asked you what method you would propose instead. If you think there are “other domains and magisterial” that do “define reality” then tell us how they verify their claims. Why so coy?

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…you were steering your wee wizards away from the limitations of methodological naturalism.


Your straw man game is strong here. He was doing no such thing – the “limitations of methodological naturalism” are not a problem for actual methodological naturalism – they’re just limitations for your personal redefinition of the term.   
« Last Edit: February 25, 2024, 10:52:55 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2024, 10:55:39 AM »
Your manifest error here is to mistake the philosophy with the method. Yes science can tell us what exists physically and that physicality might well be real but it cannot be shown to define reality.
While you were trying then to outline the shortcomings of other people and other domains and magisteria you were steering your wee wizards away from the limitations of methodological naturalism.
I asked you a question. None of the rest follows.  Stop lying.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2024, 11:00:03 AM »
Vlad,

As you’re a fan of Wiki here it is explaining where you continue to go wrong about methodological naturalism. I don’t know why I have to keep schooling you about this, but hey-ho eh?

On the other hand, the more moderate view that naturalism should be assumed in one's working methods as the current paradigm, without any further consideration of whether naturalism is true in the robust metaphysical sense, is called methodological naturalism.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)
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jeremyp

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2024, 11:47:14 AM »
No I mean scientism.
I have no beef with methodological naturalism or methodological reductionism, only claims that science is the only means of describing or defining reality.

It is the only means we have that seems to work. Do you have an alternative?
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jeremyp

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2024, 11:47:38 AM »
Your manifest error here is to mistake the philosophy with the method. Yes science can tell us what exists physically and that physicality might well be real but it cannot be shown to define reality.
While you were trying then to outline the shortcomings of other people and other domains and magisteria you were steering your wee wizards away from the limitations of methodological naturalism.

Evasion noted.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2024, 12:04:30 PM »
It is the only means we have that seems to work. Do you have an alternative?
Realistically, It is the only way we have of learning physics. That's science. That it teaches us what reality is and isn't is scientism. Science then isn't even the alternative folks around here wish it was.

Philosophy, logic, reason and revelation are means to truthIMHO.

 Without considering the poor grasp of these demonstrated within say New atheism. Nearly Sane seems to be expecting far greater skill, precision and knowledge from Theists.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2024, 12:09:42 PM »
Realistically, It is the only way we have of learning physics. That's science. That it teaches us what reality is and isn't is scientism. Science then isn't even the alternative folks around here wish it was.

Philosophy, logic, reason and revelation are means to truthIMHO.

 Without considering the poor grasp of these demonstrated within say New atheism. Nearly Sane seems to be expecting far greater skill, precision and knowledge from Theists.
I've just had the revelation you are lying. So that must be true then.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2024, 12:11:49 PM »
I asked you a question. None of the rest follows.  Stop lying.
I have offered methods in the past and you have not accepted any. Either there are none, or you won't accept one, or I cannot adequately explain one and you just keep asking me because you enjoy watching me trip up.(sadism?)
Logic and reason and philosophy are ways to what is truth.
My explanation of their methodologies have proved inadequate for you, but that might just be me.....or you.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2024, 12:18:46 PM »
I have offered methods in the past and you have not accepted any. Either there are none, or you won't accept one, or I cannot adequately explain one and you just keep asking me because you enjoy watching me trip up.(sadism?)
Logic and reason and philosophy are ways to what is truth.
My explanation of their methodologies have proved inadequate for you, but that might just be me.....or you.
Could you show me a post where I've rejected logic and reason and philosophy?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2024, 12:53:01 PM »
Vlad,

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Realistically, It is the only way we have of learning physics.

So what?

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That's science. That it teaches us what reality is…

No, it teaches us a set of understandings about what reality is. Those understandings may or may not be junked or amended if further evidence comes to light – that’s why science limits its explanations to theories. Try to grasp this.

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…and isn't is scientism.

It certainly isn’t. Why then do you us that term as your straw man du jour so frequently here?

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Science then isn't even the alternative folks around here wish it was.

Non sequitur. What “alternative” do you think “folks around here wish it was” exactly?

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Philosophy, logic, reason and revelation are means to truthIMHO.

Philosophy, logic and reason are baked in to science. Faith on the other hand is what you rely on when you don’t have these tools to justify your truth beliefs.

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Without considering the poor grasp of these demonstrated within say New atheism. Nearly Sane seems to be expecting far greater skill, precision and knowledge from Theists.

Why are you still lying about this?



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I have offered methods in the past and you have not accepted any.

Because you haven’t offered any methods at all. Occasionally when desperate you claim to have some magic powers of insight that are denied to the rest of us or something, but that’s not a method.

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Either there are none, or you won't accept one, or I cannot adequately explain one and you just keep asking me because you enjoy watching me trip up.(sadism?)

No, the correct formulation here is that there are none that you’ve ever been able to produce.

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Logic and reason and philosophy are ways to what is truth.

Provisional truth(s), but ok…

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My explanation of their methodologies have proved inadequate for you, but that might just be me.....or you.

No, it’s you – you haven’t offered any explanations that are logical, reason-based or philosophically coherent.

Why is that?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2024, 02:21:50 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2024, 12:57:38 PM »


Philosophy, logic, reason and revelation are means to truthIMHO.


I'd be fascinated to know how revelation fits into the truth picture.
Can you expand?
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Outrider

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2024, 08:11:00 PM »
No I mean scientism.

Or, at least, a straw-man approximation of what people think dressed up with the name 'scientism', but do go on (and on...)

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I have no beef with methodological naturalism or methodological reductionism, only claims that science is the only means of describing or defining reality.

And who is making that claim, other than you on other people's behalf despite them repeatedly pointing out that you're misrepresenting them. I don't think I'm aware of anyone here, or anywhere else, who is ideologically dedicated to the notion that there is no means but science to determine anything.

What you have is people who are aware of the capacity and limitations of science, and are aware of notions like logic and mathematics which have validity and limitations of their own, but aren't given to accept claims from other derivations until, and unless, some methodology can be offered to support and justify those claims.

What's missing here is not an acceptance from other people of bullshit, it's a methodological framework to elevate your bullshit (or anyone else's) from the morass of baseless bullshit that it swims in. No-one owes your pet superstition any acceptance, it has to be earned.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2024, 07:54:24 AM »
I'd be fascinated to know how revelation fits into the truth picture.
Can you expand?
I suppose any contact with God, initiated by God leading to commitment to, knowledge or retreat from God. Collectively, response to God.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2024, 08:15:09 AM »
I suppose any contact with God, initiated by God leading to commitment to, knowledge or retreat from God. Collectively, response to God.
Is there any method by which these revaluations can be verified?
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jeremyp

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2024, 08:20:02 AM »
Realistically, It is the only way we have of learning physics. That's science. That it teaches us what reality is and isn't is scientism. Science then isn't even the alternative folks around here wish it was.
Science helps us to find out about reality. If that's scientism, then guilty as charged, but so what? We have no other means of finding out about reality so it seems odd to me that you would sneer at it.

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Philosophy, logic, reason and revelation are means to truthIMHO.

One of those things is not like the others.

How can you be sure that your "revelation" tells you anything that is true?
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Without considering the poor grasp of these demonstrated within say New atheism. Nearly Sane seems to be expecting far greater skill, precision and knowledge from Theists.

No, he doesn't expect anything other than evasion and sophistry. What he wants, before he starts believing your ridiculous ideas is some justification.
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jeremyp

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2024, 08:28:41 AM »
I suppose any contact with God,
How do we know you have contact with God and not just some crazy voice inside your head?

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initiated by God
How do we know that anything you say was initiated by God and not just some crazy voice inside your head?

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leading to commitment to, knowledge or retreat from God.
But if it's not God but just some crazy voice inside your head, why would anybody commit to it?

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Collectively, response to God.
How do you know it's not a collective response to somebody who had a particularly convincing crazy voice inside their head?

Now I'm not suggesting that your revelations definitely are from a crazy voice inside your head, but it is a possibility I have to eliminate before I start believing you.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2024, 09:00:23 AM »
Is there any method by which these revaluations can be verified?
Since the revelation is only effective on a personal level,
One has to honestly examine whether you are on the road to Commitment,or in retreat. External views will either tell you you have a mental aberration or a genuine experience. Ultimately your decision on stance is existential.

jeremyp

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2024, 09:04:01 AM »
Since the revelation is only effective on a personal level,
One has to honestly examine whether you are on the road to Commitment,or in retreat. External views will either tell you you have a mental aberration or a genuine experience. Ultimately your decision on stance is existential.

You could just have said "no".
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2024, 09:53:09 AM »
Vlad,

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Since the revelation is only effective on a personal level,
One has to honestly examine whether you are on the road to Commitment,or in retreat. External views will either tell you you have a mental aberration or a genuine experience. Ultimately your decision on stance is existential.

None of which tells you anything at all about whether the belief you’re committing to is anything more than just a belief. I could have said exactly the same about my commitment to leprechauns. So what though?   
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2024, 11:43:11 AM »

....
One of those things is not like the others.

....
I fully agree that revelation is an odd thing to link to philosophy, logic and reason but reading your post clarified that the other three are a bit odd being grouped together. Reason seems to me to be a synonym for logic when used in this sense. Logic would seem to be a subset of philosophy.  Arguably science is a subset of philosophy but that argument seems to me to expose that philosophy is a sort of catch all term rather than a method. As has already been mentioned logic is 'baked into' science.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2024, 11:53:58 AM by Nearly Sane »

jeremyp

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2024, 11:54:22 AM »
I fully agree that revelation id an odd thing to link to philosophy, logic and reason but reading your post clarified that the other three are a bit odd being grouped together. Reason seems to me to be a synonym for logic when used in this sense. Logic would seem to be a subset of philosophy.  Arguably science is a subset of philosophy but that argument seems to me to expose that philosophy is a sort of catch all term rather than a method. As has already been mentioned logic is 'baked into' science.

Science is a branch of philosophy, or, at least, originated as one. Until the term "science" was coined, it was even called "natural philosophy".

And yes, I think philosophy is a catch all term to refer to all thinking about the World (taking the word "World" in the broadest possible sense). The key point is "thinking". Revelation is not thinking and neither is much of what most adherents to religion do.
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Outrider

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2024, 03:55:52 PM »
Since the revelation is only effective on a personal level,

Even that doesn't answer the question - it's not just that you can't demonstrate to someone else that it's a justifiable claim, you can't even have any justified confidence yourself.

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One has to honestly examine whether you are on the road to Commitment,or in retreat.

No, one has to seek medical advice about the voices you're apparently hearing.

O.

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SteveH

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2024, 04:12:25 PM »
Science is a branch of philosophy, or, at least, originated as one. Until the term "science" was coined, it was even called "natural philosophy".

And yes, I think philosophy is a catch all term to refer to all thinking about the World (taking the word "World" in the broadest possible sense). The key point is "thinking". Revelation is not thinking and neither is much of what most adherents to religion do.
Regarding what philosophy is, I remember reading the words of some philosopher who said that in a sense there's no such thing as philosophy; it's always philosophy 𝘰𝘧 something else: science, religion, ethics (philosophy of morality), etc. It's the basic principles of something else.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Putting an end to scientism
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2024, 05:05:52 PM »
SteveH,

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Regarding what philosophy is, I remember reading the words of some philosopher who said that in a sense there's no such thing as philosophy; it's always philosophy 𝘰𝘧 something else: science, religion, ethics (philosophy of morality), etc. It's the basic principles of something else.

I think what you’re describing here is applied philosophy, as opposed to pure philosophy:

Applied philosophy is differentiated from pure philosophy primarily by dealing with specific topics of practical concern, whereas pure philosophy does not take an object; metaphorically it is philosophy applied to itself; exploring standard philosophical problems and philosophical objects (e.g. metaphysical properties) such as the fundamental nature of reality, epistemology and morality among others.[1] Applied philosophy is therefore a subsection of philosophy, broadly construed it does not deal with topics in the purely abstract realm, but takes a specific object of practical concern.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_philosophy
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