Author Topic: Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)  (Read 2821 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2024, 07:28:06 PM »
Vlad,

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It was actually your "little helpers" who started going on about design and engineering.

I don’t have any.

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I actually put a post suggesting we shouldn't look at it as an industrial process, after telling your "Little helpers" they seemed to be confusing evolution with biogenesis and universal creation something you seem to be repeating here.

The word is abiogenesis (as I told you the last time you made this mistake) and no-one here has confused evolution with abiogenesis.

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Let me help you out.

What makes you think you can help out someone who clearly knows more about the subject than you do?

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Evolution is a change in what exists.

Sort of. It’s actually the emergence of novel properties via genetic mutations derived from the sexual reproduction and interactions with environment, but near enough.   

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Creation is the provision of what there is.

No, “creation” in the religious sense is shit some people make up superficially to explain to their satisfaction the existence of things while simultaneously special pleading away the same question about their various gods.

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There cannot IMV be unintention or accident if there is only one thing so I would say God or whatever could not have unintentionally or accidentally give rise to the universe. There is no context in which he can have an accident.

There are no sound reasons to think that the existence of shews or elephants (or elephant shrews for that matter) or people is intentional or purposive – or at least no sound reasons that you’ve ever produced here.

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Sriram I would imagine is a monist which means the universe is one thing and so also has no context in which to have "An accident"...that wouldn't be inconsistent with an idea of universal intentionality.

I have no idea what Sriram is. What I do know is that he’s unable to construct a logically cogent argument to justify the various truth claims he makes here.

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And then there's you....A Cake-ist who argues that the universe is both a single thing and yet, somehow also a collection of things, whichever suits his argument.

A cricket match is a single thing. It’s also a collection of lots of separate things. Why is this difficult for you?

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Given then that I am not talking about design or engineering....who gives a crap about Paley?

You should because it’s analogous to the crap argument you attempted. That you then ballsed up what Paley’s Watch tells you about the wrongheadedness of assuming complexity implies purposive creation doesn’t get you off that hook.

Try again.   
« Last Edit: March 06, 2024, 08:32:14 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2024, 07:27:19 AM »
Vlad,

I don’t have any.

The word is abiogenesis (as I told you the last time you made this mistake) and no-one here has confused evolution with abiogenesis.

What makes you think you can help out someone who clearly knows more about the subject than you do?

Sort of. It’s actually the emergence of novel properties via genetic mutations derived from the sexual reproduction and interactions with environment, but near enough.   

No, “creation” in the religious sense is shit some people make up superficially to explain to their satisfaction the existence of things while simultaneously special pleading away the same question about their various gods.

There are no sound reasons to think that the existence of shews or elephants (or elephant shrews for that matter) or people is intentional or purposive – or at least no sound reasons that you’ve ever produced here.

I have no idea what Sriram is. What I do know is that he’s unable to construct a logically cogent argument to justify the various truth claims he makes here.

A cricket match is a single thing. It’s also a collection of lots of separate things. Why is this difficult for you?

You should because it’s analogous to the crap argument you attempted. That you then ballsed up what Paley’s Watch tells you about the wrongheadedness of assuming complexity implies purposive creation doesn’t get you off that hook.

Try again.   
Two areas here where you contradict  previous argument.

1. Your illusionism, where anything is explicable in terms of it's components therefore a cricket match IS only a collection of players and a wicket, according to how you have previously argued. Here you are refuting that

2. According to arguments where a trinity is really merely three gods and therefore illusory as a unity, a cricket match is merely a collection of players and a wicket.

So once again we see you changing your argument to suit.

What we still have is evolution mistaken for creation.

As far as Paley is concerned all I am saying is something that looks designed, could have been designed. Not "therefore designed"

If something is really a single thing, and is the only thing it has no context in which to do anything accidentally.

On your previous arguing a cricket match is just the illusion of a single entity,it really being a collection.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 08:24:05 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2024, 10:14:36 AM »
I've never known any of the atheists/agnostics/ignostics  here ever to confuse evolution with abiogenesis. It's always the theists who keep doing that.
And yet we see atheists confusing evolution with creation here.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2024, 10:19:55 AM »
And yet we see atheists confusing evolution with creation here.
Is there such a thung as 'creation' to confuse evolution with?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2024, 10:23:30 AM »
Is there such a thung as 'creation' to confuse evolution with?
It doesn't matter. What's happening is still a confusion of concepts taking place.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2024, 10:31:42 AM »
It doesn't matter. What's happening is still a confusion of concepts taking place.
It matters because you present it as a fact. It isn't. I don't think anyone is confused between your unevifenced assertion and the fact and theory of evolution. I think you are unwilling to face up to the logical flaws in your unevidenced assertion, some of which can be pointed out using thr fscts of evolution, since your unevidenced assertion of creation also has built in assumptions of a intentional, involved entity which you think intervenes.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2024, 10:41:56 AM »
It matters because you present it as a fact. It isn't. I don't think anyone is confused between your unevifenced assertion and the fact and theory of evolution. I think you are unwilling to face up to the logical flaws in your unevidenced assertion, some of which can be pointed out using thr fscts of evolution, since your unevidenced assertion of creation also has built in assumptions of a intentional, involved entity which you think intervenes.
What "facts of evolution" do you think negate a creation?

If either the universe or God are a single entity unmoved by another then there is no context for the unintentional or accidental to occur.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2024, 10:57:07 AM »
Vlad,

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Two areas here where you contradict  previous argument.

1. Your illusionism, where anything is explicable in terms of it's components therefore a cricket match IS only a collection of players and a wicket, according to how you have previously argued. Here you are refuting that

You’re very confused. A cricket match is both a set of its component parts and activities, and a description of the whole event. I have no idea why you find this so hard to grasp – it seems very simple to me. 

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2. According to arguments where a trinity is really merely three gods and therefore illusory as a unity, a cricket match is merely a collection of players and a wicket.

I’ve haven't discussed the Trinity, but in any case if you want to assert such a thing as three entities that collectively you describe as a “Trinity” that’s fine. My chocolate bar consists of chocolate, caramel and nuts but it’s also called a Sneakers Bar. Where you fall apart is when you overreach into eliding your three parts somehow into one and the same thing. Or something. Who knows – it’s all incoherence at that point.

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So once again we see you changing your argument to suit.

You opposing your own straw men versions of what I’ve said isn’t me changing my actual argument at all, and you should stop lying about this. 

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What we still have is evolution mistaken for creation.

No-one has done that, and you should stop lying about that too.

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As far as Paley is concerned all I am saying is something that looks designed, could have been designed. Not "therefore designed"

You still have it arse-backwards – basically the same struggle you have with the burden of proof concept. Paley’s Watch merely tells you that the appearance of complexity does not imply purpose. That some objects – such as watches – are purposive is neither here nor there. It’s a non-point.

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If something is really a single thing, and is the only thing it has no context in which to do anything accidentally.

Did this gibberish mean something in your head before you eructated it?

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On your previous arguing a cricket match is just the illusion of a single entity,it really being a collection.

More lying isn’t getting you off the hook here. At one level of abstraction a cricket match is a single entity; at another it’s lots of people and equipment (and at another level it’s bajillions of sub-atomic particles too). Your fallacy of composition mistake is just to assume that the deterministic character of the components that comprise the universe implies that the universe itself must also be deterministic in character. Clocks are made of components, including springs. If you drop a spring it will bounce. Does that mean that if you drop a clock it will also bounce? Why not?   

You will of course now run away from this as you always do, but that won’t make your basic mistake in reasoning go away.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 10:59:20 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2024, 10:57:45 AM »
Vlad,

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And yet we see atheists confusing evolution with creation here.

And yet we see no such thing. Why are you still lying about this?

Tell you what – why not put up or shut up instead? Just cite an example of it and you’ll have made your point.   

What’s stopping you?

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2024, 11:10:10 AM »
What "facts of evolution" do you think negate a creation?

If either the universe or God are a single entity unmoved by another then there is no context for the unintentional or accidental to occur.
  I didn't say the facts of evolution do negate a 'creation'. I said that there are facts of evolution which point out inconsistencies in one suggested idea of creation. That one being an interventionist god that is loving and deserving of worship.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2024, 11:27:52 AM »
Vlad,

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What "facts of evolution" do you think negate a creation?

He didn’t say that. What he said was that some of the facts of evolution “point out” some of the logical errors in your creation myth. 

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If either the universe or God are a single entity unmoved by another then there is no context for the unintentional or accidental to occur.

Drivel. “Unintentional” means “not done with intention or on purpose”. A creationist (as you now seem to have become) asserts that a god intended and engineered, say, our existence as a purposive act. Decisions were made and consequent acts occurred. There is no such intentionality though with the playing out of a non-purposive universe.     
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 12:05:23 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2024, 03:27:50 PM »
Vlad,

He didn’t say that. What he said was that some of the facts of evolution “point out” some of the logical errors in your creation myth. 

Drivel. “Unintentional” means “not done with intention or on purpose”. A creationist (as you now seem to have become) asserts that a god intended and engineered, say, our existence as a purposive act. Decisions were made and consequent acts occurred. There is no such intentionality though with the playing out of a non-purposive universe.   
There is I'm afraid no scope for randomness or external determination of your action if you are the soul entity. There are no degrees of freedom whatsoever for what you are suggesting Hillside. The universe cannot, if it is the soul entity, act purposelessly....ditto God. There is absolutely no room for chance.

Where you do have chance you have multiple entities or possibilities. That cannot be with a single entity.

Safest position IMHO. Is a created universe contingent on a creator.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2024, 04:00:47 PM »
Vlad,

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There is I'm afraid no scope for randomness or external determination of your action if you are the soul entity. There are no degrees of freedom whatsoever for what you are suggesting Hillside. The universe cannot, if it is the soul entity, act purposelessly....ditto God. There is absolutely no room for chance.

Whoosh!

Once again: “Unintentional” means “not done with purpose or intention”. “Intentional” on the other hand means “done with purpose or intention (and perhaps then acting on it)”. A godless universe would be the former; your god-present universe would be the latter.

Can you see the fundamental difference between them now?       

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Where you do have chance you have multiple entities or possibilities. That cannot be with a single entity.

Nope, no idea. What incompetently formed, half-baked notion are you even trying to express here?

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Safest position IMHO. Is a created universe contingent on a creator.

Except for that claim to stand you have all your work ahead of you still first to demonstrate that the universe even is created, and then to establish why the supposed creator could be not created. Good luck with both preconditions though. 
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jeremyp

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2024, 05:29:04 PM »
And yet we see atheists confusing evolution with creation here.

Really? Which atheists? Which posts?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2024, 05:59:19 PM »
Vlad,

Whoosh!

Once again: “Unintentional” means “not done with purpose or intention”. “Intentional” on the other hand means “done with purpose or intention (and perhaps then acting on it)”. A godless universe would be the former; your god-present universe would be the latter.

Can you see the fundamental difference between them now?       

Nope, no idea. What incompetently formed, half-baked notion are you even trying to express here?

Except for that claim to stand you have all your work ahead of you still first to demonstrate that the universe even is created, and then to establish why the supposed creator could be not created. Good luck with both preconditions though.
See the definition of unintentional and you come across the term accidental. And of course, visa versa.

If there is but a single entity there is no context for an accident or chance.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 09:03:05 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2024, 06:04:23 PM »
See the definition of accidental and you come across the term accidental. And of course, visa versa.

If there is but a single entity there is no context for an accident or chance.


https://youtu.be/iCDfjcclStA?si=uRkVkhryg09UKfyO
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 06:45:04 PM by Nearly Sane »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2024, 11:15:40 AM »
Vlad,

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See the definition of unintentional and you come across the term accidental. And of course, visa versa.

If there is but a single entity there is no context for an accident or chance.

With a nod to Eric Morecambe, you seem you to be using all the right words but not necessarily in the right order.

Was there a cogent thought in there somewhere struggling to get out, or are you reduced now to only word salad? 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2024, 11:21:46 AM »
Vlad,

With a nod to Eric Morecambe, you seem you to be using all the right words but not necessarily in the right order.

Was there a cogent thought in there somewhere struggling to get out, or are you reduced now to only word salad?
I think that's overly complimentary.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2024, 11:29:58 AM »
NS,

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I think that's overly complimentary.

I know, but I'm in a generous mood today...
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bluehillside Retd.

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jeremyp

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2024, 11:22:20 AM »
https://theconversation.com/the-mystery-of-consciousness-shows-there-may-be-a-limit-to-what-science-alone-can-achieve-225034

That article is a mess. This paragraph alone should be ringing alarm bells:

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For all of these reasons and more, science is rightly celebrated and revered. However, a healthy pro-science attitude is not the same thing as “scientism”, which is the view that the scientific method is the only way to establish truth. As the problem of consciousness is revealing, there may be a limit to what we can learn through science alone.

Science isn't a religion: it is not something you revere. The scientific method is the only way we have of establishing the truth with respect to the real world. And the fact that science doesn't have a good model for consciousness (yet) does not mean it is not amenable to the scientific method. This is just the argument from personal incredulity.

The idea that the physicalist and panpsychist positions are equally undecidable is ridiculous. The physicalists have got some evidence in favour of their position. They observe that new consciousness arises when a new brain develops and it goes away when the brain dies. That seems pretty good circumstantial evidence if nothing else.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2024, 07:46:44 AM »
That article is a mess. This paragraph alone should be ringing alarm bells:

Science isn't a religion: it is not something you revere. The scientific method is the only way we have of establishing the truth with respect to the real world. And the fact that science doesn't have a good model for consciousness (yet) does not mean it is not amenable to the scientific method. This is just the argument from personal incredulity.

The idea that the physicalist and panpsychist positions are equally undecidable is ridiculous. The physicalists have got some evidence in favour of their position. They observe that new consciousness arises when a new brain develops and it goes away when the brain dies. That seems pretty good circumstantial evidence if nothing else.
Science being the only means of establishing truth?
Your assertion so your burden.
First of , Where's the scientific data that proves the truth of your assertion?
Cue Hillside's accusation of a straw man here.

jeremyp

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2024, 08:36:19 AM »
Science being the only means of establishing truth?
Your assertion so your burden.
Science is the only means we have of establishing the truth with respect to the real world. You missed that bit out when you quoted me.

How do I justify my assertion? By observing that there are no other known means of establishing the truth with respect to the real world. If you have got one, why don't you tell us what it is.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Mind and Consciousness (God version)
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2024, 04:31:06 PM »
Vlad,

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Science being the only means of establishing truth?

About the observable world, so far as we know yes. More generally, logic (of which science is a sub-set) is the only known method of establishing truths. It is of course theoretically possible that someone has come up with another method and decided to keep it a secret, but that’s a point with no practical significance. 

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Your assertion so your burden.

See above.

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First of , Where's the scientific data that proves the truth of your assertion?

What makes you think there needs to be one?

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Cue Hillside's accusation of a straw man here.

Yes – the only method anyone has brought to our attention and the only method full stop are not the same thing. The latter is the straw man version you've attempted here. 
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