Author Topic: A Christian revival  (Read 3905 times)


bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19495
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2024, 04:07:44 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-christian-revival-is-under-way-in-britain/

All that our post-Christian society has delivered so far is confusion, a mental health crisis in the young and the culture wars. It’s not surprising then that a movement of New Theists has sprung up.

Oh dear.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19495
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2024, 04:19:01 PM »
Vlad,

Just so you know where your boy is coming from.

Through creative use of podcast, radio, print, video and social media, he aims to showcase an intellectually compelling case for Christianity, while taking seriously the questions and objections of sceptics.

Until April 2023 he was Theology & Apologetics Editor for Premier Christian Radio, and hosted the Unbelievable? radio show and podcast as well as the Ask NT Wright Anything podcast. Justin was also editor of Premier Christianity magazine from 2014-2018, for which he continues to contribute articles.

When he isn't working in a professional capacity, you'll find Justin involved in youth work and worship leading at church.”

https://justinbrierley.com/about/

"Don't make me come down there."

God

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4373
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2024, 04:30:46 PM »
Vlad,

Just so you know where your boy is coming from.

Through creative use of podcast, radio, print, video and social media, he aims to showcase an intellectually compelling case for Christianity, while taking seriously the questions and objections of sceptics.

Until April 2023 he was Theology & Apologetics Editor for Premier Christian Radio, and hosted the Unbelievable? radio show and podcast as well as the Ask NT Wright Anything podcast. Justin was also editor of Premier Christianity magazine from 2014-2018, for which he continues to contribute articles.

When he isn't working in a professional capacity, you'll find Justin involved in youth work and worship leading at church.”

https://justinbrierley.com/about/

From the link "Russell Brand is now calling himself a Christian, and is planning to be baptised".
I'm sure he'll be a shining light, just like Putin and Trump when they play with religion. Say na more.


https://www.christianpost.com/news/russell-brand-considering-baptism-attending-churches.html
« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 04:38:13 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14579
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2024, 04:40:48 PM »
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-christian-revival-is-under-way-in-britain/

"It also recounts how Holland, a secular liberal westerner who had lost any vestige of faith by his teenage years, came to realise he was still essentially Christian in terms of his beliefs about human rights, equality and freedom."

I just love the complete disregard for the state of Christianity across time and space that this is just dropped as though we're going to presume that he's not a misogynistic, homophobic, Christian Nationalist because that's so completely unthinkable.

It fundamentally ignores the fact that, in Britain, the Christian community hasn't led the way on those sorts of issues, it's had to be dragged along kicking and screaming into the modern world by secular, rights-based values.

'Christian revival' appears to be claiming that all the movements the church opposed in the last century now belong to the church as part of its proprietary claim on 'morals'.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2024, 04:55:34 PM »
So some 'slebs, some of who are British, is a revival?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19495
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2024, 05:08:31 PM »
NS,

Quote
So some 'slebs, some of who are British, is a revival?

It’s a “movement” too apparently:

Where this movement is headed remains to be seen.”

To be fair he pulls it back a bit next:

The statistics show an overall picture of continued decline of religiosity. Churchgoing in some denominations has been in free fall for decades.

But then loses the plot again:

Yet one recent piece of research has given me pause for thought. In Finland, church attendance among 18- to 29-year-old men more than doubled between 2011 and 2019. The same uptick applies to their prayer habits and belief in God. The stats might just be a weird anomaly (this hasn’t been recorded in other Nordic countries), or it may be a canary in the coal mine.

Absent any statistics, “more than doubled” could mean an increase of millions, or it could equally mean a statistically irrelevant increase from one person to three people from a population of millions.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33247
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2024, 05:18:36 PM »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2024, 05:18:46 PM »
NS,

It’s a “movement” too apparently:

Where this movement is headed remains to be seen.”

To be fair he pulls it back a bit next:

The statistics show an overall picture of continued decline of religiosity. Churchgoing in some denominations has been in free fall for decades.

But then loses the plot again:

Yet one recent piece of research has given me pause for thought. In Finland, church attendance among 18- to 29-year-old men more than doubled between 2011 and 2019. The same uptick applies to their prayer habits and belief in God. The stats might just be a weird anomaly (this hasn’t been recorded in other Nordic countries), or it may be a canary in the coal mine.

Absent any statistics, “more than doubled” could mean an increase of millions, or it could equally mean a statistically irrelevant increase from one person to three people from a population of millions.     
Some details here

https://evangelicalfocus.com/europe/25092/against-the-odds-researchers-find-an-increase-in-religiosity-among-young-finnish-men

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33247
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2024, 12:05:02 AM »
Vlad,

Just so you know where your boy is coming from.

Through creative use of podcast, radio, print, video and social media, he aims to showcase an intellectually compelling case for Christianity, while taking seriously the questions and objections of sceptics.

Until April 2023 he was Theology & Apologetics Editor for Premier Christian Radio, and hosted the Unbelievable? radio show and podcast as well as the Ask NT Wright Anything podcast. Justin was also editor of Premier Christianity magazine from 2014-2018, for which he continues to contribute articles.

When he isn't working in a professional capacity, you'll find Justin involved in youth work and worship leading at church.”

https://justinbrierley.com/about/
Bzzzzzzzzz The genetic fallacy?!

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10418
  • God? She's black.
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2024, 06:41:55 AM »
Vlad,

All that our post-Christian society has delivered so far is confusion, a mental health crisis in the young and the culture wars. It’s not surprising then that a movement of New Theists has sprung up.

Oh dear.
Absolutely typical of happy-clappys - jump on a bandwagon just when everyone else is jumping off it. Thus "new atheists" becomes "new theists". They never think of anything original.
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33247
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2024, 08:13:28 AM »
So some 'slebs, some of who are British, is a revival?
"Some 'slebs, some of who are British" could describe the New atheists or 4 horsemen as they referred to themselves and look how successful they were.
Where they didn't succeed according to Brierley et Al was their prediction that they had finished off Christianity.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5685
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2024, 08:19:00 AM »
"Some 'slebs, some of who are British" could describe the New atheists or 4 horsemen as they referred to themselves and look how successful they were.
Where they didn't succeed according to Brierley et Al was their prediction that they had finished off Christianity.

Not seen that prediction (more a claim if they said they had). Could you show where that was made?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33247
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2024, 08:23:09 AM »
Not seen that prediction (more a claim if they said they had). Could you show where that was made?
I think in 2016 Dawkins posted a warning not to celebrate the demise of christianity. I don't think one does that if they don't believe in christianity'demise.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33247
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2024, 08:28:31 AM »


SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10418
  • God? She's black.
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2024, 08:40:01 AM »
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2024, 08:59:36 AM »
"Some 'slebs, some of who are British" could describe the New atheists or 4 horsemen as they referred to themselves and look how successful they were.
Where they didn't succeed according to Brierley et Al was their prediction that they had finished off Christianity.
Never seen such a prediction, and you're reply to Maeght doesn't show it. Even if they did it's not really relevant to whether Russell Brand amounts to British revival of Christianity.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2024, 09:01:04 AM »
Absolutely typical of happy-clappys - jump on a bandwagon just when everyone else is jumping off it. Thus "new atheists" becomes "new theists". They never think of anything original.
Wait till the new new atheists, and the new new new theists!

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33247
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2024, 09:19:13 AM »
Never seen such a prediction, and you're reply to Maeght doesn't show it. Even if they did it's not really relevant to whether Russell Brand amounts to British revival of Christianity.
I think Brierley himself outlines the circumstances how any green shoots Christian revival can fail.  I.e. if its merely a passing fad or political. Dawkin's has certainly said we shouldn't celebrate the demise of christianity in Europe and has talked about it's "death throws."

Is Brierley saying that Russell Brand constitutes revival? That sounds like hyperbole on your part.

I recall reading about a lunch Dawkins had where the suggestion that the defeat of Christianity left the door open for other religious opinions. I will of course post further details on that as I can be bothered to find them.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64396
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2024, 09:28:38 AM »
I think Brierley himself outlines the circumstances how any green shoots Christian revival can fail.  I.e. if its merely a passing fad or political. Dawkin's has certainly said we shouldn't celebrate the demise of christianity in Europe and has talked about it's "death throws."

Is Brierley saying that Russell Brand constitutes revival? That sounds like hyperbole on your part.

I recall reading about a lunch Dawkins had where the suggestion that the defeat of Christianity left the door open for other religious opinions. I will of course post further details on that as I can be bothered to find them.
I'm not getting anything more thar shows a revivival in Britain from the article other than Russell Brand and a couple of other celebrities so not really seeing it as hyperbole. Other than the 'slebs and an anomalous group, as he says, in Finland, where's the beef?

Again, even had  some atheists predicted 'that they had finished off Christianity', it's irrelevant to Brierley's case, and nothing in the article from Dawkins or your lunch idea amounts to such a prediction.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17634
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2024, 09:39:03 AM »
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-christian-revival-is-under-way-in-britain/
Oh I do so love it when people use unverifiable anecdote (oh look at how many more people are rushing to St Bartholomew the Great) as justification for a broad conclusion (just look at that christian revival) despite this conclusion not being backed up be actual evidence (that the CofE itself publishes annual statistics that show attendance continuing to decline rather than rising - covid years apart). And of course this typically comes from someone who wants their generalised conclusion based on their unverifiable anecdote to be true.

But there are some other aspects here.

First the church in question - St Bartholomew the Great - I know it very well as it is really close to one of my places of work. It is very far from being a typical church. It is a very important historic church and smack on the tourist trail (all sorts of tourists, more of that later). Anyone who knows the area won't be at all surprised that the church is full of affluent younger professionals, because those are the kind of people who live, and importantly work, nearby. It is a world away from the typical CofE church in a town or village, where the average congregation is about 30 people across a whole week and whose congregation are very elderly.

Secondly - tourism - it is a church regularly visited by tourists, and not just the casual drop-by but at it has a very highly regarded reputation for its music and singing that includes choral tourists. I know very well as I've thought about (although not actually been able to) attending choral events there and I know a number of members of my choir have regularly trotted down there to participate in their choral evensong (largely for the music, not the religion).

But there is a a broader point - I get really frustrated with people who claim that just be looking around that they can tell that their congregation is growing or shrinking. The decline in attendance for CofE is about 3% a year. So if a church had attendance of 100 a year later that would be 97. Unless you actually count there is no way you'd really notice the difference between 100 people in the congregation and 97.

But also there will be a tendency to notice 'new' people rather than notice the couple who typically sat on the other side of the church six rows back who are no longer there. So in a situation where four people stop attending while two new people join it will lend itself to an anecdote about the new people, despite overall numbers declining.

That's why anecdotes of this nature tend to be a load of non-sense. Anecdotes are only really useful if they are treated purely as an unverifiable anecdote, without any generalised conclusion. Or if the anecdote aligns with the proper evidence that shows the same thing. In this case it doesn't.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33247
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2024, 09:41:32 AM »
I'm not getting anything more thar shows a revivival in Britain from the article other than Russell Brand and a couple of other celebrities so not really seeing it as hyperbole. Other than the 'slebs and an anomalous group, as he says, in Finland, where's the beef?

Again, even had  some atheists predicted 'that they had finished off Christianity', it's irrelevant to Brierley's case, and nothing in the article from Dawkins or your lunch idea amounts to such a prediction.
I think you think then that the term revival is hyperbole.
So, there either is revival or not. Brierley's interesting point is that the offensive by new atheism has stalled and the debate has moderated between atheists and Christians. Added to this are the reports that the New Atheists have lost a 'Horsewoman to christianity.

Of course Brierley and his new coterie of reasonably tame atheists don't post on that museum of New Atheism aka the Religion ethics forum. An atheist "hang" where a militant atheist can be themselves.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17634
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2024, 09:48:11 AM »
I think you think then that the term revival is hyperbole.
Certainly in the UK it isn't just hyperbole, but non-sense. Hyperbole would suggest that there is an increase in attendance, but not to the extend that would justify the term revival.

But the actual evidence is the opposite - the long term trend of declining attendance in the CofE (and other major denominations in the UK) continues. How can you talk of revival when fewer people (not more people) are participating.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33247
Re: A Christian revival
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2024, 09:48:41 AM »
Oh I do so love it when people use unverifiable anecdote (oh look at how many more people are rushing to St Bartholomew the Great) as justification for a broad conclusion (just look at that christian revival) despite this conclusion not being backed up be actual evidence (that the CofE itself publishes annual statistics that show attendance continuing to decline rather than rising - covid years apart). And of course this typically comes from someone who wants their generalised conclusion based on their unverifiable anecdote to be true.

But there are some other aspects here.

First the church in question - St Bartholomew the Great - I know it very well as it is really close to one of my places of work. It is very far from being a typical church. It is a very important historic church and smack on the tourist trail (all sorts of tourists, more of that later). Anyone who knows the area won't be at all surprised that the church is full of affluent younger professionals, because those are the kind of people who live, and importantly work, nearby. It is a world away from the typical CofE church in a town or village, where the average congregation is about 30 people across a whole week and whose congregation are very elderly.

Secondly - tourism - it is a church regularly visited by tourists, and not just the casual drop-by but at it has a very highly regarded reputation for its music and singing that includes choral tourists. I know very well as I've thought about (although not actually been able to) attending choral events there and I know a number of members of my choir have regularly trotted down there to participate in their choral evensong (largely for the music, not the religion).

But there is a a broader point - I get really frustrated with people who claim that just be looking around that they can tell that their congregation is growing or shrinking. The decline in attendance for CofE is about 3% a year. So if a church had attendance of 100 a year later that would be 97. Unless you actually count there is no way you'd really notice the difference between 100 people in the congregation and 97.

But also there will be a tendency to notice 'new' people rather than notice the couple who typically sat on the other side of the church six rows back who are no longer there. So in a situation where four people stop attending while two new people join it will lend itself to an anecdote about the new people, despite overall numbers declining.

That's why anecdotes of this nature tend to be a load of non-sense. Anecdotes are only really useful if they are treated purely as an unverifiable anecdote, without any generalised conclusion. Or if the anecdote aligns with the proper evidence that shows the same thing. In this case it doesn't.
Professor. Can I put this claim I read about recently to you for comment " Inherited religion is falling, chosen religion is rising".