Eight stabbed and man held in 'major incident'

[jeremyp]

Though there was also a sortbof gotcha reaction at the time from some when the murderer was then said to be of a Christian background.

Maybe they were.

[Nearly Sane]

Maybe they were.

He may well have been but it's the eagerness to use that as some thing to be almost celebrated as confirming views immediately, just as the news yesterday was 'celebrated' by others, that seems the problem, as the rest of my post covered that I was raising.

[ProfessorDavey]

Though there was also a gotcha reaction at the time from some when the murderer was then said to be of a Christian background.

I don't that calling out people for lying by providing factually correct information can ever be considered to be a 'gotcha'.

The lies were that the attacker was called Ali Al-Shakiri, that he was a muslim immigrant, an asylum seeker and had recently arrived on a small boat. Non of this was true.

He is a British citizen, born in Cardiff to Rwandan immigrants. Now the population of Rwanda is over 90% christian so it is a pretty good bet that he came from a christian background. But I can be even more confident as my niece was actually in the same class as him in primary school - a catholic school in Cardiff where the family were well known to the catholic community as they were regular worshippers at the same church my in-laws attend.

Now he might have converted to islam later (although I don't think we know that), but that still wouldn't change the fact that he was from a christian background.

Have we really got to the point where everyone is entitled to their own 'fact' that calling out lies with evidence is seen as 'gotcha'. If so, heaven help us.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't that calling out people for lying by providing factually correct information can ever be considered to be a 'gotcha'.

The lies were that the attacker was called Ali Al-Shakiri, that he was a muslim immigrant, an asylum seeker and had recently arrived on a small boat. Non of this was true.

He is a British citizen, born in Cardiff to Rwandan immigrants. Now the population of Rwanda is over 90% christian so it is a pretty good bet that he came from a christian background. But I can be even more confident as my niece was actually in the same class as him in primary school - a catholic school in Cardiff where the family were well known to the catholic community as they were regular worshippers at the same church my in-laws attend.

Now he might have converted to islam later (although I don't think we know that), but that still wouldn't change the fact that he was from a christian background.

Have we really got to the point where everyone is entitled to their own 'fact' that calling out lies with evidence is seen as 'gotcha'. If so, heaven help us.

You seem to be missing the point, helped by quotemining.

[ProfessorDavey]

You seem to be missing the point, helped by quotemining.

What point am I missing.

You implied that the people stating the facts about the attacker were engaging in 'gotcha' and involved in some kind of circus show. They weren't - they were stating facts to call out liars. Your quote in full:

'Though there was also a gotcha reaction at the time from some when the murderer was then said to be of a Christian background. So many people seem to want their hatred to be confirmed by this, and other tragic acts. Rather than a period for relection, and calm, they are turned into some sort of circus show.'

The stuff about Jenrick is of no relevance as this is about recent events rather than the lying and stating of facts that occurred directly after the events.

[Nearly Sane]

What point am I missing.

You implied that the people stating the facts about the attacker were engaging in 'gotcha' and involved in some kind of circus show. They weren't - they were stating facts to call out liars. Your quote in full:

'Though there was also a gotcha reaction at the time from some when the murderer was then said to be of a Christian background. So many people seem to want their hatred to be confirmed by this, and other tragic acts. Rather than a period for relection, and calm, they are turned into some sort of circus show.'

The stuff about Jenrick is of no relevance as this is about recent events rather than the lying and stating of facts that occurred directly after the events.

Because it's not about lies. It's about people seeking things out to conform their hatred as the quote said  some of those who spread the lies about the murderer being a muslim asylum seeker knew they were lying, but many didn't and spread the misinformation because they thought it true and confirmed their beliefs. When it was indicated that he was from a Christian background ot was seized on by those wanting it to be true so as to confirm their hatred of the first group.

And that's then been mirrored by the first group seizing on the latest actual information to say I told you so.

Meanwhile there are 3 murdered children.

[jeremyp]

Because it's not about lies. It's about people seeking things out to conform their hatred as the quote said  some of those who spread the lies about the murderer being a muslim asylum seeker knew they were lying, but many didn't and spread the misinformation because they thought it true and confirmed their beliefs. When it was indicated that he was from a Christian background ot was seized on by those wanting it to be true so as to confirm their hatred of the first group.

And that's then been mirrored by the first group seizing on the latest actual information to say I told you so.

Meanwhile there are 3 murdered children.

I think you are spinning this in an excessively gotcha kind of way. I really doubt that many of those pointing out that the attacker had a Christian background were doing it as a way to confirm their hatred of the first group. Not that the first group isn't deserving of some contempt - which is not the same as hatred btw.

[Nearly Sane]

I think you are spinning this in an excessively gotcha kind of way. I really doubt that many of those pointing out that the attacker had a Christian background were doing it as a way to confirm their hatred of the first group. Not that the first group isn't deserving of some contempt - which is not the same as hatred btw.

I saw lots of tweets doing exactly that saying that it just showed how the right wing were full of dangerous liars  that the latest facts to energe are seen by the first group as backing them up in an argument that is isn't really about what happened but whether what happened backs up their beliefs.

Say those who spread the misinformation about being an asylum seeker were right. Got their facts correct from the start. It's not going to justify the actions, it doesn't make the argument they think it does.

And neither did them getting it wrong make any difference to the overall arguments but too many taking the opposite position think it did.

And still three children have been murdered.

[ProfessorDavey]

Because it's not about lies. It's about people seeking things out to conform their hatred as the quote said  some of those who spread the lies about the murderer being a muslim asylum seeker knew they were lying, but many didn't and spread the misinformation because they thought it true and confirmed their beliefs. When it was indicated that he was from a Christian background ot was seized on by those wanting it to be true so as to confirm their hatred of the first group.

Sure people will conveniently use facts to push an agenda. But surely you can see the difference between using facts to push an agenda (even if there is no causal link) and using lies to push an agenda, where the starting point isn't true.

And that's then been mirrored by the first group seizing on the latest actual information to say I told you so.

Except they are still wrong as they were then - their claims were that the attacker was called Ali Al-Shakiri, that he was a muslim immigrant, an asylum seeker and had recently arrived on a small boat. None of this was true then and nothing that has come to light more recently has changed that. All those claims remain untrue. The nearest that might have been tweaked is whether he is muslim - he certainly wasn't growing up, but he might have converted more recently although I don't think there is any evidence to support this that has been released.

Meanwhile there are 3 murdered children.

And those children and their families deserve truth and justice. Lies about who the attacker was doesn't help them at all and the riots that kicked off following the murders can only have made their pain even worse.

[jeremyp]

I saw lots of tweets

How many is lots? Ten? a hundred? What percentage of the Twitter user base does it represent do you think?

Say those who spread the misinformation about being an asylum seeker were right.

Why? They were wrong.

And still three children have been murdered.

And it could have been even worse if the rioters had got to any of the asylum seeker hotels. The people who incited the riots deserve contempt and prison. The people who lied about the origins of the murderer deserve contempt and prison because they did things that caused people to incite riots.