Author Topic: To infinity and beyond.  (Read 2717 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2024, 11:02:52 AM »
Photo taken from my desk just now.

Zero zebras
I did ask what this has to do with infinite zebras I actually see no actual zebras.
Or a potential zebra,Do you mean how many non actual zebras are their?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2024, 11:05:34 AM »
Well, it looks like the Universe is infinite in extent according to measurements of its expansion. So, assuming that it is and that the number of stars in it is also infinite (it would have to be else, space would not be infinite in extent), it is a real life example of Hilbert's hotel. Let's take a couple of examples.
But are we talking about an actual infinity or a potential infinity?
Quote


  • I take all of the stars (there are infinitely many) and remove all of the red giants (there are infinitely many). There are still infinitely many stars left. ∞ - ∞ = ∞
  • I take all of the stars and remove all of the stars more than 10 light years from Earth (there are infinitely many). There is a finite number of stars left. ∞ - ∞ = 12

Wow. Look, I seem to have the same contradiction as the article had. Except there is absolutely nothing wrong with or contradictory about what I did.
But are the conclusions contradictory?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 11:18:00 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Stranger

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2024, 11:53:54 AM »
I did ask what this has to do with infinite zebras I actually see no actual zebras.
Or a potential zebra,Do you mean how many non actual zebras are their?

You seem to have complexly lost the plot. You claimed infinities were contradictory. It was pointed that the supposed contradictions only arise when you do your 'sums' wrong. An article you referenced compared it to zero because you get similar 'contradictions' if you use zero wrong. Then you started to question if zero could exist in reality, it was pointed how it does, now you're asking what this has to do with infinity and wittering on about 'potential zebras'.

Get a grip!
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Stranger

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2024, 11:54:43 AM »
But are the conclusions contradictory?

No.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

jeremyp

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2024, 01:22:00 PM »
I did ask what this has to do with infinite zebras
You asked to see zero zebras. I showed you a photograph with zero zebras in it. I can't show you a photo with an infinite number of zebras in it because there aren't infinite zebras, at least not within range of my phone camera.

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I actually see no actual zebras.
There's your zero zebras.
Quote
Or a potential zebra,Do you mean how many non actual zebras are there?
What the hell is this supposed to be about?
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jeremyp

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2024, 01:26:08 PM »
But are we talking about an actual infinity or a potential infinity?
We can't be 100% certain but it seems we are dealing with an actual infinity of stars.

Quote
But are the conclusions contradictory?
No but they exactly parallel the ones that you claim (falsely) are contradictory.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2024, 06:27:39 PM »
You seem to have complexly lost the plot. You claimed infinities were contradictory. It was pointed that the supposed contradictions only arise when you do your 'sums' wrong. An article you referenced compared it to zero because you get similar 'contradictions' if you use zero wrong. Then you started to question if zero could exist in reality, it was pointed how it does, now you're asking what this has to do with infinity and wittering on about 'potential zebras'.

Get a grip!
When you get your inverted comma sums inverted comma wrong. WTF are you on about?
If you can produce an actual infinity in concreto then as I said to Nearly Sane then you have completely won the argument. You have still to justify the claim that there is indirect evidence for an actual infinity existing.

Concerning the absence of zebra or zero zebra Can zero zebra be shown to exist I’m not sure. It works better as a non existent than an actual something in nature.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2024, 06:30:11 PM »
You asked to see zero zebras. I showed you a photograph with zero zebras in it. I can't show you a photo with an infinite number of zebras in it because there aren't infinite zebras, at least not within range of my phone camera.
There's your zero zebras.What the hell is this supposed to be about?
Yes I am being unreasonable specifically asking for infinite zebras. Any actual infinity will do

Stranger

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2024, 07:35:38 PM »
When you get your inverted comma sums inverted comma wrong. WTF are you on about?
If you can produce an actual infinity in concreto then as I said to Nearly Sane then you have completely won the argument.

FFS, pay some attention for once in your life!

There are no real contradictions with infinities (as you wrongly claimed in the OP), they all arise because you (and others) can't do the maths right and have made basic mistakes.

If I said: "0 × 7 = 0 × 300, therefore, dividing by 0, we get 7 = 300", then I'd clearly know noting about mathematics and have made an elementary mistake.

Exactly the same is true of the supposed contradictions with infinities. They are simply mathematical mistakes.

Once that had been shown, that should have been the end of this thread. But because you can't let it go, you are now pretending that it was always about actually showing you a real infinity. Nobody has ever claimed we could do that, and it has nothing to do with the claims of contradictions that you started with.

You really need to grow up.

You have still to justify the claim that there is indirect evidence for an actual infinity existing.

#45

Concerning the absence of zebra or zero zebra Can zero zebra be shown to exist I’m not sure. It works better as a non existent than an actual something in nature.

I really can't be arsed to try to teach you the basics of counting things. Tell you what, why don't you transfer all the money in all your accounts to me, so all your bank balances are zero, then explain to me if zero is real or not....
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jeremyp

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2024, 08:11:14 AM »
Yes I am being unreasonable specifically asking for infinite zebras. Any actual infinity will do

I'm not claiming there definitely are any actual infinities, only that we can't rule them out.

There is evidence that space-time is infinite. If we have measured its expansion correctly and Einstein's general theory of relativity is correct, then space-time is infinite. That's not definite, but it's the best you are going to get.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2024, 09:02:54 AM »
FFS, pay some attention for once in your life!

There are no real contradictions with infinities (as you wrongly claimed in the OP), they all arise because you (and others) can't do the maths right and have made basic mistakes.

If I said: "0 × 7 = 0 × 300, therefore, dividing by 0, we get 7 = 300", then I'd clearly know noting about mathematics and have made an elementary mistake.

Exactly the same is true of the supposed contradictions with infinities. They are simply mathematical mistakes.

Once that had been shown, that should have been the end of this thread. But because you can't let it go, you are now pretending that it was always about actually showing you a real infinity. Nobody has ever claimed we could do that, and it has nothing to do with the claims of contradictions that you started with.

You really need to grow up.

#45

I really can't be arsed to try to teach you the basics of counting things. Tell you what, why don't you transfer all the money in all your accounts to me, so all your bank balances are zero, then explain to me if zero is real or not....
This isn’t the issue, the issue is you passing zero Zebras or absent entities off as an actual existent entity. Zeroes like this are paradoxes. There is no way of distinguish zero zebras from zero elephants from zero anything. Mathematically sound perhaps but an ontological absurdity.

This rather makes you the one trying to claim that unnatural, ontologically absurd Zeroes somehow provide evidence for actual physical infinities.

In terms of counting real physical entities we start at one, ignoring those absent.
I wonder whether by your logic you see zero funds in your account you take it as an occasion to break out a fat cigar.

Stranger

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2024, 09:10:34 AM »
This isn’t the issue, the issue is you passing zero Zebras or absent entities off as an actual existent entity. Zeroes like this are paradoxes. There is no way of distinguish zero zebras from zero elephants from zero anything. Mathematically sound perhaps but an ontological absurdity.

This rather makes you the one trying to claim that unnatural, ontologically absurd Zeroes somehow provide evidence for actual physical infinities.

In terms of counting real physical entities we start at one, ignoring those absent.
I wonder whether by your logic you see zero funds in your account you take it as an occasion to break out a fat cigar.

Sorry, you're just being silly now. Your OP has been demolished, get over it. Move on.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2024, 09:11:25 AM »
This isn’t the issue, the issue is you passing zero Zebras or absent entities off as an actual existent entity. Zeroes like this are paradoxes. There is no way of distinguish zero zebras from zero elephants from zero anything. Mathematically sound perhaps but an ontological absurdity.

This rather makes you the one trying to claim that unnatural, ontologically absurd Zeroes somehow provide evidence for actual physical infinities.

In terms of counting real physical entities we start at one, ignoring those absent.
I wonder whether by your logic you see zero funds in your account you take it as an occasion to break out a fat cigar.
And again if you are saying that zero is an ontological absurdity, you are saying that when you have asked why is there something rather than nothing that you have been asking a logically incoherent question.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2024, 09:19:38 AM »
And again if you are saying that zero is an ontological absurdity, you are saying that when you have asked why is there something rather than nothing that you have been asking a logically incoherent question.
No what I am asking is why physics or nature and not the absence of it.
If you are claiming that question is incoherent you have to say that physics and nature have to be.

Zeroes are mathematically real but non existant entities do not exist definitionally.

Nearly Sane

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2024, 09:35:10 AM »
No what I am asking is why physics or nature and not the absence of it.
If you are claiming that question is incoherent you have to say that physics and nature have to be.

Zeroes are mathematically real but non existant entities do not exist definitionally.
And yet the concept of a physical nothing is for you an ontological absurdity. That applies to the nothing in you why something rather than nothing question. As a foot shooting move, it's almost elegant.

Outrider

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2024, 10:26:36 AM »
F there is more than one conclusion and those conclusions are different then we have a contradiction.

No. In maths there are any number of scenarios - the most obvious and basic being solutions to quadratic equations - where there are multiple, equally correct solutions. That's because sometimes, what's being described by the maths, doesn't have a single, unique solution.

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If you are defining contradiction differently then you need to explain it.

Differently to you? You're the one making the claim, all I need to do is point out the error in YOUR definition - you are presuming that you can't have multiple valid conclusions from any given situation, that the presence of mathematical ranges or discrete values somehow invalidates the work because you haven't got 'an' answer.

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If we look at the citation I gave we see in his working out that he does indeed come up with more than one conclusion when performing the maths of infinity.

Actually, as is spelt out in the introduction, the failure comes from "Some philosophers use Hilbert’s Hotel to argue that actual infinities cannot exist in the physical world because basic arithmetic operations involving infinities lead to “absurdities.” Infinity is not a number, it's a concept; you can do maths with it, but amongst the things you can't do with it is arithmetic.

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While that may be logical, if one is arguing that there could be real infinities one has to demonstrate these multiple conclusions occurring physically. And that’s all I am saying.

I write an equation to map the contours of a mountain range - I then solve that equation for all points moving out from, say, Everest's peak, where the gradient turns positive. There are going to be hundreds, possibly thousands or millions depending on the scale to which I'm working and the precision of the equation. All correct, all within the one equation.

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However, some “absurdities” arise when groups start leaving. If a finite group of 5 checks out, the hotel still has an infinite number of rooms filled. But consider what happens when two different infinite groups leave the hotel. Having the infinite group in all rooms greater than 5 check out leaves only 5 rooms filled. Alternatively, when the infinite group of all even numbers checks out, the hotel has an infinite number of odd rooms filled. In equation form (paralleling the addition equations above), this gives:

a – b = c   Just like addition above
∞ – a = ∞   OK so far
∞ – ∞ = 5   First infinite group leaving
∞ – ∞ = ∞   Second infinite group leaving

Actually, no. Depending on the ranges and the context:

∞ – anything is undefined - you can't do arithmetic with infinity, it's not a number. In mathematical terms, it's like saying 15 - fish.

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The last two equations are contradictory! You can’t subtract one value from another value and get two different results.

And here is the crux of the misunderstanding: seven is a value. 'x' in an equation is a value (not currently defined). ∞, though, is not a value. He goes on to explain that, which you even quoted, but then continued with the misunderstanding anyway.

No what I am asking is why physics or nature and not the absence of it.

What makes you think there's a 'why'? You're such a fan of 'necessary entities' - why can't 'laws of nature' be the necessary entity?

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If you are claiming that question is incoherent you have to say that physics and nature have to be.

No, just that they are. The probability of an event that's already happened is 1. If there was never a point where physics didn't happen, that probability has always been 1.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2024, 10:30:36 AM »
And yet the concept of a physical nothing is for you an ontological absurdity. That applies to the nothing in you why something rather than nothing question. As a foot shooting move, it's almost elegant.
No a non existent thing being counted as a physical thing ditto potential things, as in a statement like “There are zeroes found in nature” is what is ontologically difficult or absurd.

Nearly Sane

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2024, 10:35:50 AM »
No a non existent thing being counted as a physical thing ditto potential things, as in a statement like “There are zeroes found in nature” is what is ontologically difficult or absurd.
And that's exactly what your why something rather than nothing question does.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2024, 10:53:51 AM »
And that's exactly what your why something rather than nothing question does.
But this so called invalid question appears to have an answer which makes me wonder why you are saying it is an invalid question. You seem to be resting the absurdity of the question on its answer.

Nearly Sane

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2024, 11:01:44 AM »
But this so called invalid question appears to have an answer which makes me wonder why you are saying it is an invalid question. You seem to be resting the absurdity of the question on its answer.
I'm not saying it's an invalid question, though I don't know that it is a valid one. I'm saying that for someone like you that says zero is an ontological absurdity, as you do, then it's a logically incoherent one to ask. 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2024, 11:50:13 AM »
I'm not saying it's an invalid question, though I don't know that it is a valid one. I'm saying that for someone like you that says zero is an ontological absurdity, as you do, then it's a logically incoherent one to ask.
I’m not sure it is. Potential things are also non existent. So when the question Why something rather than nothing is asked it means “why are things actualised rather than not actualised?”

Nearly Sane

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2024, 11:55:32 AM »
I’m not sure it is. Potential things are also non existent. So when the question Why something rather than nothing is asked it means “why are things actualised rather than not actualised?”
If non existent things are a coherent thing, then they are not an ontological absurdity, and you are saying that when you said zero was an ontological absurdity, you were wrong. Your self abuse on this thread is unbecoming.

jeremyp

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2024, 12:00:42 PM »
No a non existent thing being counted as a physical thing ditto potential things, as in a statement like “There are zeroes found in nature” is what is ontologically difficult or absurd.

I showed you a photograph with zero zebras in it. How can you deny that zeros are found in nature?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2024, 12:16:41 PM »
If non existent things are a coherent thing, then they are not an ontological absurdity, and you are saying that when you said zero was an ontological absurdity, you were wrong. Your self abuse on this thread is unbecoming.
I am not saying zeros are illogical since they operate perfectly well and have a glorious existence in mathematical reality. All I am saying is that they are not a thing in physical reality.

That IMV does not detract from any question why there is a physical universe and since that is all I’m interested in.......

Nearly Sane

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2024, 12:20:04 PM »
I am not saying zeros are illogical since they operate perfectly well and have a glorious existence in mathematical reality. All I am saying is that they are not a thing in physical reality.

That IMV does not detract from any question why there is a physical universe and since that is all I’m interested in.......
No, you said that zero is an ontological absurdity, that would apply to the nothing in the question of why something rather than nothing.

You then used non existent things as the equivalent of the nothing in the question but they are also analogus to the zero you are saying is an ontological absurdity, hence your contradiction.