Author Topic: To infinity and beyond.  (Read 7250 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #275 on: October 28, 2024, 06:39:55 PM »
Actually, it all follows from being that which exists independent of anything else.
That's a further assertion

jeremyp

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #276 on: October 29, 2024, 09:06:51 AM »
It sounds as if you have nothing Against a necessary entity per se and that IMV is why. Some atheists imo think the necessary entity has the smell of God about it and they would be right...

I'm not ruling out the possibility of a necessary entity. I'm just saying that you haven't shown that there must be a necessary entity or that this necessary entity must be a god under the normal definition of a personal god.

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But let us look at what our necessary entity entails...

It has always existed
That does not follow.
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It exists rather than nothing existing
This is a tautology. If something exists then something exists. Well done. How profound.

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There is nothing that can make it do anything...otherwise that would be the necessary entity.
Well that rules out your god as a necessary entity: humans forced your god to incarnate as a human.

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Subsequently, it obeys no greater law, has no context in which to make an accidental or chance action.
Again, if true, your god cannot be a necessary entity, otherwise it would just have forgiven humans instead of going through all that death and resurrection nonsense.
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Given that then it is not like a natural, unconscious thing.

Huh? That's a leap.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #277 on: October 31, 2024, 08:31:26 AM »

That does not follow. This is a tautology. If something exists then something exists.
It does follow that the necessary entity has always existed since had it not it would have come from nothing and nothing does not exist.

jeremyp

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #278 on: October 31, 2024, 08:47:44 AM »
It does follow that the necessary entity has always existed since had it not it would have come from nothing and nothing does not exist.

How do you know there was never a time when nothing existed?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #279 on: October 31, 2024, 09:10:54 AM »
How do you know there was never a time when nothing existed?
Nothing, by definition doesn’t exist. You seem to be advocating something coming from nothing or something creating itself...an absurdity .

More over the existence of nothing you are suggesting seems to depend on a something... time.

jeremyp

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #280 on: October 31, 2024, 09:17:57 AM »
Nothing, by definition doesn’t exist.
This is just word games.

How do you know there was never a time when nothing existed?

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You seem to be advocating something coming from nothing or something creating itself
You mean like your god?

I'm not advocating anything. I'm asking you to justify the things you advocate.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #281 on: October 31, 2024, 09:26:11 AM »
This is just word games.

How do you know there was never a time when nothing existed?
You mean like your god?

I'm not advocating anything. I'm asking you to justify the things you advocate.
I’m not advocating anything creating itself just something always existing. When we observe entities which is it that has always existed and always will?

jeremyp

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #282 on: October 31, 2024, 12:24:14 PM »
I’m not advocating anything creating itself just something always existing.
Yes and I'm asking you to justify that and also your insistence that the something that has always existed is your (or anybody's) god.

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When we observe entities which is it that has always existed and always will?
I don't know. You tell e.
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SteveH

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #283 on: October 31, 2024, 01:23:51 PM »
Nothing, by definition doesn’t exist. You seem to be advocating something coming from nothing or something creating itself...an absurdity .

More over the existence of nothing you are suggesting seems to depend on a something... time.
As I've pointed out previously on this thread, modern quantum physics, as I understand it (and it is quite likely that I've misunderstood it, but if you think so, references please) says that universes can indeed pop into existence without a pre-existent cause.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Outrider

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #284 on: October 31, 2024, 08:28:02 PM »
I’m not advocating anything creating itself just something always existing.

I’m not sure you have properly acknowledged the difficulties with infinities

Which is it, just so we're clear?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #285 on: November 01, 2024, 08:02:58 AM »
Which is it, just so we're clear?

O.
Can a single entity be the same as an infinite regress of entities? I think not.
So both.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #286 on: November 01, 2024, 08:09:10 AM »
As I've pointed out previously on this thread, modern quantum physics, as I understand it (and it is quite likely that I've misunderstood it, but if you think so, references please) says that universes can indeed pop into existence without a pre-existent cause.
Reference please? Where are yours?
Trouble here is the ubiquity of energy. Since it is literally anywhere nothing now can be popping out of nowhere.
Moreover I’ve heard the effect of popping into existence is due to quantum fluctuations so presumably something has to fluctuate.

SteveH

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When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Outrider

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #288 on: November 01, 2024, 08:47:17 AM »
Can a single entity be the same as an infinite regress of entities?

Your problem, you said, was with infinities.

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I think not.

I get that distinct impression myself.

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So both.

A, special pleading lives on. So good to see a classic.

O.

Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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SteveH

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Re: To infinity and beyond.
« Reply #290 on: November 01, 2024, 11:45:55 AM »
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".