Author Topic: Secular Nativity  (Read 8838 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Secular Nativity
« on: August 23, 2024, 08:16:36 AM »
Unsubtle piece of shitstirring, Timely political protest?, piece of passive aggression or atheist comedians "feeling a bit funny"?

https://youtu.be/-8wvKL8jDa4?si=fD6IzDpvLGWFStqk

SteveH

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2024, 08:29:18 AM »
Yawn.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Outrider

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2024, 09:00:23 AM »
Blatant abuse of authority in the service of Christian Nationalism, nine years ago, punished by the courts. I'm curious as to what your point is, here, this one seems to be pretty much by the book?

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2024, 01:38:26 PM »
Blatant abuse of authority in the service of Christian Nationalism, nine years ago, punished by the courts. I'm curious as to what your point is, here, this one seems to be pretty much by the book?

O.
Yes,surprisingly, I can enjoy such a one who now represents a Christian Nationalism getting owned partly through his lack of wit.
On the other hand, what is the problem with a nativity scene at Christmas?What does it particularly have to do with Christian nationalism? If those who put up the removed cultural display were making a point about religious display in a public place they could have used legal means to do so without parodying a familiar cultural image.

It seems to me that parodying someone’s culture is to attack that whole culture while advancing the notion that your own is superior.

Imo It’s not a million miles away from the antitheist painting”Jesus paints his nails”. In the end though.It seemed passive aggressive and an exercise of the horses laugh fallacy.

So if you wanted to get the governor. You could have got him without the display.

Anything beyond that is mocking parody.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2024, 01:46:33 PM »
Yes,surprisingly, I can enjoy such a one who now represents a Christian Nationalism getting owned partly through his lack of wit.
On the other hand, what is the problem with a nativity scene at Christmas?What does it particularly have to do with Christian nationalism? If those who put up the removed cultural display were making a point about religious display in a public place they could have used legal means to do so without parodying a familiar cultural image.

It seems to me that parodying someone’s culture is to attack that whole culture while advancing the notion that your own is superior.

Imo It’s not a million miles away from the antitheist painting”Jesus paints his nails”. In the end though.It seemed passive aggressive and an exercise of the horses laugh fallacy.

So if you wanted to get the governor. You could have got him without the display.

Anything beyond that is mocking parody.
How could they have got him by legal means other than this? It's only because he was provoked that this happened.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2024, 01:50:23 PM »
How could they have got him by legal means other than this? It's only because he was provoked that this happened.
Eh?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2024, 01:53:09 PM »
Eh?
You said 'they could have used legal means to do so without parodying a familiar cultural image' - how?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2024, 01:57:19 PM »
You said 'they could have used legal means to do so without parodying a familiar cultural image' - how?
By placing a non parodying cultural image of your own.
Eg a double helix with an atheist sign. Or If you have an issue with the governor, parody the governor.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2024, 01:58:53 PM »
By placing a non parodying cultural image of your own.
Eg a double helix with an atheist sign. Or If you have an issue with the governor, parody the governor.
And would he have reacted the same way?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2024, 02:06:49 PM »
And would he have reacted the same way?
Yes, I think so.
The governor was ruled against fairly and squarely but when Metha says "What's mocking about this?", he insults intelligences.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2024, 02:11:47 PM »
Yes, I think so.
The governor was ruled against fairly and squarely but when Metha says "What's mocking about this?", he insults intelligences.
That he was ruled against says nothing about him reacting by pursuing it so that a ruling was necessary.

As to whether it's mocking or not, who cares. You seem to want to reduce the freedom of expression just as much ad the governor but where he resorts to law, you want people to self censor because you don't want mocked.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2024, 02:25:14 PM »
That he was ruled against says nothing about him reacting by pursuing it so that a ruling was necessary.

As to whether it's mocking or not, who cares. You seem to want to reduce the freedom of expression just as much ad the governor but where he resorts to law, you want people to self censor because you don't want mocked.
Mock away. Mehta obviously felt the need to deny it was mockery. Let's not pretend it's all that virtuous though  or that it isn't horses laugh fallacy.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2024, 02:29:57 PM »
Mock away. Mehta obviously felt the need to deny it was mockery. Let's not pretend it's all that virtuous though  or that it isn't horses laugh fallacy.
And again so what if it is mocking?  I have no idea what you think is fallacious in this context. I doubt your suggestion  would have lead the governor to react quite so obviously against the constitution in his attempt to impose a blasphemy position, and I don't see why you raising mocking and suggesting it shouldn't happen is any more than a difference of degree from his position.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2024, 02:34:18 PM by Nearly Sane »

splashscuba

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2024, 03:01:43 PM »
The 1st amendment allows Americans (and visitors) to mock whoever they want. It's protected by law. People can choose to be offended or not. Governors have no place trying to restrict their 1st amendment rights.

Just for context, I'm a UK citizen and still think mocking is totally acceptible as long as it doesn't insight violence.
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Outrider

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2024, 03:05:32 PM »
On the other hand, what is the problem with a nativity scene at Christmas?

Nobody had any issues with a nativity scene at Christmas. The legal case is nothing to do with a nativity, it's to do with a secular alternative put up in addition to a nativity scene, and the response to it.

Quote
What does it particularly have to do with Christian nationalism?

You mean the bit where a Christian Nationalist in authority elected to personally intervene in a sanctioned display to eject the non-Christian display he didn't personally like, but to retain the Christian display that he did? You need the Christian Nationalism implications of that explaining?

Quote
If those who put up the removed cultural display were making a point about religious display in a public place they could have used legal means to do so without parodying a familiar cultural image.

They did use legal means, that's why they won the case. Parody is, get this, entirely legal in the US (and many other places), even when it's religion that's being parodied. It's almost like free speech, or the government not favouring one religious viewpoint over another or something.

Quote
It seems to me that parodying someone’s culture is to attack that whole culture while advancing the notion that your own is superior.

Feeling targetted, much. It probably felt to them that having overt support for Christian symbology whilst being deprived their right to celebrate how they choose was an attack on their culture, from someone depicting that theirs ws superior. Putting your display alongside someone else's is claiming equal ground, not suppressing them.

As for the parody element, what's being parodied do you think? Christianity, or the performative weaponisation of it by the US religious right?

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Imo It’s not a million miles away from the antitheist painting”Jesus paints his nails”.

Who had 'antitheism' on their Vlad bingo? Come on, someone must be there by now...

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In the end though.It seemed passive aggressive and an exercise of the horses laugh fallacy.

So you really didn't understand the point, then. Here's a hint - it's not mocking the Nativity, or the profundity of the season for the devout.

Quote
So if you wanted to get the governor. You could have got him without the display.

But they didn't want to 'get the governor'. They wanted to be allowed the same freedoms as anyone else, to live in a country where -as per its foundational document - they are equals. But they suspected they would not be treated as such, and gave the Governor enough rope to hang himself. They didn't get the governor, they got the governor to get himself.

Quote
Anything beyond that is mocking parody.

It must be so terrible to be (checks notes) subject to a humorous display. Where's the proper mockery, like being told you're equal but being denied bodily autonomy, or marriage rights, or having your  local area gerrymandered to disenfranchise your vote...

Suck it up, buttercup.

O.
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splashscuba

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2024, 03:12:06 PM »
It must be so terrible to be (checks notes) subject to a humorous display. Where's the proper mockery, like being told you're equal but being denied bodily autonomy, or marriage rights, or having your  local area gerrymandered to disenfranchise your vote...

Suck it up, buttercup.

O.
This
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2024, 04:28:49 PM »
The 1st amendment allows Americans (and visitors) to mock whoever they want. It's protected by law. People can choose to be offended or not. Governors have no place trying to restrict their 1st amendment rights.

Just for context, I'm a UK citizen and still think mocking is totally acceptible as long as it doesn't insight violence.
I know all that. But just because you are mocking doesn't preclude you being an anti religious bigot or a non religious shitstirrer and as for it being terrifically funny.....

Nearly Sane

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2024, 05:32:15 PM »
I know all that. But just because you are mocking doesn't preclude you being an anti religious bigot or a non religious shitstirrer and as for it being terrifically funny.....
Nor does it mean you are a bigot, or a shitstirrer, or not funny.

splashscuba

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2024, 08:21:06 AM »
I know all that. But just because you are mocking doesn't preclude you being an anti religious bigot or a non religious shitstirrer and as for it being terrifically funny.....
Thinking you are being mocked or believing that they are being anti religeous etc is a choice.
I have an infinite number of belief systems cos there are an infinite number of things I don't believe in.

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. I don't have to respect your beliefs.

jeremyp

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2024, 11:47:59 AM »
Is this whole thread an attempt by Vlad to pretend Christians are still being persecuted in the Western World?

It seems to me that, if the governor hadn’t objected to the atheist display, nobody would ever have heard of it. It’s not like the Christian nativity isn’t stitched together from stolen Jewish literature.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2024, 11:49:45 AM »
Is this whole thread an attempt by Vlad to pretend Christians are still being persecuted in the Western World?

It seems to me that, if the governor hadn’t objected to the atheist display, nobody would ever have heard of it. It’s not like the Christian nativity isn’t stitched together from stolen Jewish literature.
I don't think it's that. Vlad thinks the governor was wrong, but he doesn't seem to like the 'mockery' because that's naughty or something.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2024, 05:06:05 PM »
Also reported by that guy...

https://youtu.be/88VsSRVSKDQ?si=-5DQsLTaxWV-ZIMM

😂
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2024, 08:47:26 AM »
Also reported by that guy...

https://youtu.be/88VsSRVSKDQ?si=-5DQsLTaxWV-ZIMM

😂
As I have said before, mock away.
I think the difference between the case of the secular nativity and Satan is, why dedicate your efforts to a figure who is the personification of evil? IMO chucking that in the face of Christians comes at best from a very puerile and angry place in the psyche.

Yes Christians are mocked but I would say that the proper concern of Christians should not be that they are mocked but that the mockers are spiritually endangered particularly going nuclear with Satanism.

As for the principle about not caring whether people are mocked, I'm pretty sure I could test that idea to destruction as far as this forum is concerned, in a matter of seconds.

Outrider

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2024, 10:01:04 AM »
As I have said before, mock away.

Permission not requested, but thanks anyway.

Quote
I think the difference between the case of the secular nativity and Satan is, why dedicate your efforts to a figure who is the personification of evil?

That's just pro-Yahweh propoganda. Satan is a figure supporting independence, free-thought and individualism. That Christianity depicts that as evil says more about Christianity than it does about Satan.

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IMO chucking that in the face of Christians comes at best from a very puerile and angry place in the psyche.

And reserving special places in the public sphere for one cult of one denomination of religin isn't 'chucking it in the face' of everyone else?

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Yes Christians are mocked but I would say that the proper concern of Christians should not be that they are mocked but that the mockers are spiritually endangered particularly going nuclear with Satanism.

Excellent. I heartily agree. Then maybe they can keep their beaks out of sexuality, drug policy, reproductive rights and the rest of the practicalities of life that they bring their superstitious nonsense into, right?

O.

As for the principle about not caring whether people are mocked, I'm pretty sure I could test that idea to destruction as far as this forum is concerned, in a matter of seconds.
[/quote]
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Secular Nativity
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2024, 10:31:02 AM »


That's just pro-Yahweh propoganda. Satan is a figure supporting independence, free-thought and individualism. That Christianity depicts that as evil says more about Christianity than it does about Satan.
With all due respect (none), that's probably the most egregious piece of you know what polishing to have appeared on this forum.

I fear for your spiritual welfare.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2024, 10:42:32 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »