Author Topic: Labour denies ‘transparency’ issue after clothing donation to Starmer’s wife  (Read 605 times)

Nearly Sane

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Hmm... I'm baffled as to why donations of such things as clothes and specs are allowed at all. Just another reason why Westminster seems out of touch.


https://archive.vn/7M9hF

splashscuba

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Hmm... I'm baffled as to why donations of such things as clothes and specs are allowed at all. Just another reason why Westminster seems out of touch.


https://archive.vn/7M9hF
Maybe, for official events where the spouse attends, there should be a defined budget for things like clothing.
I have an infinite number of belief systems cos there are an infinite number of things I don't believe in.

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. I don't have to respect your beliefs.

Nearly Sane

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Maybe, for official events where the spouse attends, there should be a defined budget for things like clothing.
Don't see why, and it certainly shouldn't be bu donation.

splashscuba

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Don't see why, and it certainly shouldn't be bu donation.
I do and I agree, it shouldn't be by donation.
I have an infinite number of belief systems cos there are an infinite number of things I don't believe in.

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. I don't have to respect your beliefs.

Nearly Sane

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Aruntraveller

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It beats me why Starmer is not smarter on this issue. He must know it doesn't play well with the electorate after the way the Tories carried this to extremes and yet he blithely carries on in the same (Ok not to the same extreme) vein. It will give people a chance to go on saying they're all the same and for websites like UnityNewsNetwork (who I despise with all my heart) to continue having a pop at him. Get a fucking grip man.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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It beats me why Starmer is not smarter on this issue. He must know it doesn't play well with the electorate after the way the Tories carried this to extremes and yet he blithely carries on in the same (Ok not to the same extreme) vein. It will give people a chance to go on saying they're all the same and for websites like UnityNewsNetwork (who I despise with all my heart) to continue having a pop at him. Get a fucking grip man.
And the easy play off of pensioners losing the WFA with Labour not having done an impact assessment, but here his wife's clothes are paid for by donation, while he gets £165k, free housing and expenses. Biggest gainer from this donation is Farage.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2024, 02:56:28 PM by Nearly Sane »

Aruntraveller

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I'm a bit disappointed. I fully expected the new government to bring in a new code of conduct that banned donations of any sort other than money to political parties in the accepted way.

I thought that would be an easy way to distance Labour from the Tories and win back some much-needed respect for politics and politicians.

Yeah, naive. I know.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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I'm a bit disappointed. I fully expected the new government to bring in a new code of conduct that banned donations of any sort other than money to political parties in the accepted way.

I thought that would be an easy way to distance Labour from the Tories and win back some much-needed respect for politics and politicians.

Yeah, naive. I know.
And they are defending it as OK, not a mistake
 This really does feel like a 'Westminster bubble' thing where they don't even see what the problem is.

Aruntraveller

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And they are defending it as OK, not a mistake
 This really does feel like a 'Westminster bubble' thing where they don't even see what the problem is.

Well, they need to be really careful.

If they are losing someone as fairly dedicated to Labour as me then they are in real trouble.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Well, they need to be really careful.

If they are losing someone as fairly dedicated to Labour as me then they are in real trouble.
Stuff like this is so out of people's experiences that it sticks out. Add to that the holier than thought approach throughout the last Parliament, and it looks both hypocritical and corrupt. In many ways scale isn't imporatant

Aruntraveller

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Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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An article on why this has the potential to be very damaging:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/18/donors-and-starmers-suits-thats-just-a-dress-rehearsal-without-new-probity-rules-worse-will-follow
Yes, the 'all MPs get gifts' is a spectacular example of a tin ear. The public will hear 'all MPs can be bought'. Policemen aren't able to receive gifts why should MPs.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2024, 06:20:55 AM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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« Last Edit: September 20, 2024, 09:35:18 PM by Nearly Sane »

Aruntraveller

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Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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It's a start, but it is not enough.
Particularly since the action seems reluctant, and not sincere, after the various ministers and MPs all saying there were no rules broken, and that there was nothing wrong with it.

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Aruntraveller

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I'm going to have to go to conference and bang some heads together!

Reeves, on R4 this morning, said something like politicians should be able to go to football matches as if somehow the argument was about the ability to attend.

No dear (and yes that is said in an extremely patronising tone), it is about the fact that it is a freebie when most people never get the chance to get a freebie unless it's a bogus 241 offer in a supermarket. Thick as the proverbial.

A season ticket at Arsenal comes in at £1434 (cheapest I could find) can they not see how bad this looks?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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I'm going to have to go to conference and bang some heads together!

Reeves, on R4 this morning, said something like politicians should be able to go to football matches as if somehow the argument was about the ability to attend.

No dear (and yes that is said in an extremely patronising tone), it is about the fact that it is a freebie when most people never get the chance to get a freebie unless it's a bogus 241 offer in a supermarket. Thick as the proverbial.

A season ticket at Arsenal comes in at £1434 (cheapest I could find) can they not see how bad this looks?
The argument for Starmer is that he can't go to a normal seat because of security so he gets invited to corporate boxes, which would cost way more than that season ticket. My take is tough. Most politicians can go to football matches, some high profile ones can't. It's just a cost of the job. Taking bribes to make your life a bit easier is still taking a bribe.

ProfessorDavey

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The argument for Starmer is that he can't go to a normal seat because of security so he gets invited to corporate boxes, which would cost way more than that season ticket. My take is tough. Most politicians can go to football matches, some high profile ones can't. It's just a cost of the job. Taking bribes to make your life a bit easier is still taking a bribe.
But how far do you extend this?

If high profile politicians aren't allowed to go to football because of the security risk, what about concerts? How about holidays? All of these represent a security risk for a top politician, but surely you cannot expect a PM to simply not be allowed to go on holiday, out for a meal etc etc.

Surely the reasonable 'compromise' here is that the politician will pay for the ticket, meal, holiday etc, etc but that security is provided for them. In some cases this might mean that there would need to be an 'upgrade' to a more secure box. I want the PM (and their family) to be able to live their life as well as being PM - to suggest otherwise seems completely unreasonable.

But then there are different scenarios where a politician attends an event in an official capacity (Reeves mentioned being an official guest of the BBC at the Proms) - surely they shouldn't be expected to cough up for a ticket, which might be an event they'd never want to go to in a million years, but are obliged to in their official capacity. Here is an example - the local Mayor is the honorary president of my choral society - the person in the role changes annually. Attending concerts is considered to be official business of the Mayor and we always provide two tickets - for the Mayor and an accompanying person free of charge. Some Mayors are clearly choral music lovers - for others it is clearly a 'contractual duty' and they'd prefer to be doing something else.


Nearly Sane

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But how far do you extend this?

If high profile politicians aren't allowed to go to football because of the security risk, what about concerts? How about holidays? All of these represent a security risk for a top politician, but surely you cannot expect a PM to simply not be allowed to go on holiday, out for a meal etc etc.

Surely the reasonable 'compromise' here is that the politician will pay for the ticket, meal, holiday etc, etc but that security is provided for them. In some cases this might mean that there would need to be an 'upgrade' to a more secure box. I want the PM (and their family) to be able to live their life as well as being PM - to suggest otherwise seems completely unreasonable.

But then there are different scenarios where a politician attends an event in an official capacity (Reeves mentioned being an official guest of the BBC at the Proms) - surely they shouldn't be expected to cough up for a ticket, which might be an event they'd never want to go to in a million years, but are obliged to in their official capacity. Here is an example - the local Mayor is the honorary president of my choral society - the person in the role changes annually. Attending concerts is considered to be official business of the Mayor and we always provide two tickets - for the Mayor and an accompanying person free of charge. Some Mayors are clearly choral music lovers - for others it is clearly a 'contractual duty' and they'd prefer to be doing something else.

I completely accept that there are times that politicians will go to sports, and music events as part of their jobs. And in those cases, they won't be paying for their ticket. But that's not the case in Starmer going to see Arsenal on a regular basis, and he didn't pay for the tickets, so you're condemning here for exactly what I did which is taking a freebie/bribe.

I also at no point suggested that there shouldn't be security, so that bit is all a strawman.

What is your opinion on the clothes donations?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 12:47:40 PM by Nearly Sane »

ProfessorDavey

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I completely accept that there are times that politicians will go to sports, and music events as part of their jobs. And in those cases, they won't be paying for their ticket. But that's not the case in Starmer going to see Arsenal on a regular basis, and ge didn't pay for the tickets, so you're condemning here for exactly what I did which is taking a freebie/bribe.

I also at no point suggested that there shouldn't be security, so that bit is all a strawman.
Where have I suggested that it is fine for him to get regular free tickets? But the security issue isn't a straw man. If a politician would normally have a season ticket in the main part of the ground (paid for by them) then if security means that they cannot really sit in the main stand but need to be in a box, then I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect the politician to pay the additional cost of box over normal seat. The reason they need to be in the box is because of the security issues.

What is your opinion on the clothes donations?
That's a weird one and strangely I think this is more of an issue for women politicians and the PM's wife. Certainly in the latter case there is now an expectation that the PM's spouse will also be involved in official functions, represent the UK, for example at major summits along with other spouses. Now, much as we might not like it, women will be judged more harshly by the press etc on the basis of what they are wearing - so it doesn't seem unreasonable that the PM's wife gets a clothing allowance - noting that she doesn't get paid to be the PM's spouse.

But there are a couple of further points - first it is really important that gifts are declared which then allows others to judge whether or not there is a conflict of interest. But the further point (and probably the biggest point) is that we massively underpay our PM (and other leading ministers) - the PM's salary would be easily exceeded by many London-based middle managers in big private companies. I don't want a world where no-one except those with significant independent wealth (e.g. Sunak, Cameron) feels that they can be PM. If we actually paid the PM a salary commensurate with the role (also noting that it is probably pretty tricky nowadays for their spouse to hold down a full time job due to the requirements to be involved in official functions) then perhaps the issue of gifts etc would diminish.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 12:57:19 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Where have I suggested that it is fine for him to get regular free tickets? But the security issue isn't a straw man. If a politician would normally have a season ticket in the main part of the ground (paid for by them) then if security means that they cannot really sit in the main stand but need to be in a box, then I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect the politician to pay the additional cost of box over normal seat. The reason they need to be in the box is because of the security issues.
That's a weird one and strangely I think this is more of an issue for women politicians and the PM's wife. Certainly in the latter case there is now an expectation that the PM's spouse will also be involved in official functions, represent the UK, for example at major summits along with other spouses. Now, much as we might not like it, women will be judged more harshly by the press etc on the basis of what they are wearing - so it doesn't seem unreasonable that the PM's wife gets a clothing allowance - noting that she doesn't get paid to be the PM's spouse.

But there are a couple of further points - first it is really important that gifts are declared which then allows others to judge whether or not there is a conflict of interest. But the further point (and probably the biggest point) is that we massively underpay our PM (and other leading ministers) - the PM's salary would be easily exceeded by many London-based middle managers in big private companies. I don't want a world where no-one except those with significant independent wealth (e.g. Sunak, Cameron) feels that they can be PM. If we actually paid the PM a salary commensurate with the role (also noting that it is probably pretty tricky nowadays for their spouse to hold down a full time job due to the requirements to be involved in official functions) then perhaps the issue of gifts etc would diminish.
I didn't say you were suggesting it was OK for him to get free tickets but that you were agreeing with me that he shouldn't and were therefore condemning his actions in taking them, just as I was.


Yes, there are people paid more than Starmer, but so what, people paid less don't get clothes paid for, they don't have free housing, free energy, subsidised meals. It's not a small salary and it has a great deal of other perks, and this wasn't an allowance, it was taking a private donation - so again where do you stand on what happened?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 01:06:24 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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This appears to be genuinely from Pam Ayres