Author Topic: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament  (Read 3636 times)

Aruntraveller

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #150 on: October 23, 2024, 12:56:20 PM »
Wes Streeting erring on the side of caution, wisely in my opinion:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2lyl8jrvlo
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2024, 01:19:40 PM »
This journalist seems to have attended the Royal College of Psychiatrists debate I mentioned and is against changing the law.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/assisted-dying-bill-commons-parliament-kim-leadbeater-uk-b1188276.html
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2024, 01:44:40 PM »
Wes Streeting erring on the side of caution, wisely in my opinion:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2lyl8jrvlo
I'm dubious about the "concern for the vulnerable " or "sanctity to human life" arguments. The reality appears to be that life and death decisions are made based on pragmatism rather than concern or sanctity. Judges and doctors are in short supply so it would probably just be a rubber stamp exercise to get this signed off rather than anyone looking into the detail of it. 

Our governments already kill people in various proxy wars and conflicts because they think it is in the country's economic interest to do so and taking other options (e.g. ones that don't involve turning a blind eye or actively helping kill large numbers of people) could be more costly or time-consuming for the government. They have to make a decision so they pick a side. 

If the government's morality is that without thinking too deeply it's ok to kill thousands for economic benefit or self-interest (strategic alliances, arms sales, access to resources), it's not surprising that those moral values are also those of ordinary citizens and they too would take a similar pragmatic rather than sentimental view in their own decisions about life and death.

I am not ill but if right now I don't believe in the sanctity of human life and I feel that in the future I would like to choose my time of death rather than suffer pain because of rubbish palliative care or suffer feeling like an economic or emotional burden to my relatives, why does this sanctity of human life have to come into play in this policy when it doesn't in so many other more destructive policies? It seems very arbitrary so MPs just need to pick a side - one that is probably determined by self-interest.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2024, 01:46:55 PM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ekim

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #153 on: October 23, 2024, 02:56:06 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #154 on: October 23, 2024, 08:07:21 PM »
PM's friend to  whom he promised that a bill on this would be brought forward berates the Health Minister for expressing his opinion.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/esther-rantzen-s-furious-letter-to-wes-streeting-what-kind-of-health-minister-are-you/ar-AA1sNGHA

Weird times.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2024, 08:13:20 PM by Nearly Sane »

Alan Burns

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #155 on: October 26, 2024, 01:55:09 PM »
Speaking as someone who has a terminal diagnosis, and who isn't feeling all that great right now, this issue isn't just a matter of academic interest - if this legislation passes then it will, for me, become a very real option.

What I would say, alongside all the talk of safeguards, restrictions and freedom of choice (which possibly implies a degree of cut & dried fictitious precision) is that the reality of living with a terminal condition and considering what the personal and family implications might be at the point my health significantly declines to the extent that I'd consider arranging for my death - is that things are likely to be messy and imprecise and I'm not certain that legislation, by its very nature, can effectively deal with the subtleties of the messy and imprecise. 

What legislative caveats can there possibly be that could deal effectively with the likes of: pain, fear, uncertainty, individual personalities, the prospect of forthcoming grief, regret, feelings of hopelessness etc etc etc - and all mixed up on a case-by-case basis? I can't see how variation of issues like these can ever be legislated for in a way where the solution (the legislation) doesn't become a bigger issue than the problem (that some people may wish to end their suffering and shorten the process of their death)

For myself, provided I have capacity at the point I elect to schedule my death, I'd settle for a simple removal of the threat of legal action against friends and family or professionals should I ever wish to end my life and that I could access professionals who felt able to arrange for my death to happen at a time of my choosing - just as I could, in the event of a my having a future medical emergency, elect for 'Do Not Resuscitate'.
Gordon,

Your message reminds me that our life on this earth is the most precious thing we have.  Every day may bring opportunities you could never have imagined.  Opportunities to love, to be loved - in particular to discover the love of God which you have yet to experience.  My wife and I pray for you every day, Gordon - we are not giving up hope, we hope you do not give up either.

Larry Taunton, a friend of Christopher Hitchens claims this famous atheist may have turned to Christ before he died and wrote a book: The Faith of Christopher Hitchens: The Restless Soul of the World’s Most Notorious Atheist  There is always hope for us all.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2024, 01:58:52 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
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SteveH

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #156 on: October 26, 2024, 02:38:32 PM »

Larry Taunton, a friend of Christopher Hitchens claims this famous atheist may have turned to Christ before he died and wrote a book: The Faith of Christopher Hitchens: The Restless Soul of the World’s Most Notorious Atheist  There is always hope for us all.
The same was said about Charles Darwin and Bertrand Russell. It was rubbish in both cases, as I'm sure is this claim about CH, who is conveniently dead, and unable to contradict the claim.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Enki

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #157 on: October 26, 2024, 02:50:38 PM »
Gordon,

Your message reminds me that our life on this earth is the most precious thing we have.  Every day may bring opportunities you could never have imagined.  Opportunities to love, to be loved - in particular to discover the love of God which you have yet to experience.  My wife and I pray for you every day, Gordon - we are not giving up hope, we hope you do not give up either.

Larry Taunton, a friend of Christopher Hitchens claims this famous atheist may have turned to Christ before he died and wrote a book: The Faith of Christopher Hitchens: The Restless Soul of the World’s Most Notorious Atheist  There is always hope for us all.

Read this, Alan, and digest it. It might just show you that your inclination to believe uncalled for and distorted statements from a such a prejudiced source is a sad weakness on your part:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2016/05/no-christopher-hitchens-did-not-convert-christianity-his-deathbed
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #158 on: October 26, 2024, 03:16:51 PM »
Read this, Alan, and digest it. It might just show you that your inclination to believe uncalled for and distorted statements from a such a prejudiced source is a sad weakness on your part:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2016/05/no-christopher-hitchens-did-not-convert-christianity-his-deathbed

Even leaving aside that to quote Taunton himself

"I make no Lady Hope-like claims regarding Christopher Hitchens. As we have seen, there were no reports of a deathbed conversion."


Gordon

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #159 on: October 26, 2024, 04:08:20 PM »
Gordon,

Your message reminds me that our life on this earth is the most precious thing we have.  Every day may bring opportunities you could never have imagined.  Opportunities to love, to be loved - in particular to discover the love of God which you have yet to experience.  My wife and I pray for you every day, Gordon - we are not giving up hope, we hope you do not give up either.

I know you mean well, Alan, and I am fortunate in the support I have from family and close friends (as in NS, who has been with me every step of the way).

My only hopes are that I remain reasonably well for as long as possible, so that I can carry on with the important responsibilities that I (and Ann) have regarding our grandchildren, and that when my demise does eventually come that it will not be too distressing for all those that matter to me. I have no hope of a 'cure': that ain't going to happen!

Quote
Larry Taunton, a friend of Christopher Hitchens claims this famous atheist may have turned to Christ before he died and wrote a book: The Faith of Christopher Hitchens: The Restless Soul of the World’s Most Notorious Atheist  There is always hope for us all.

Hitchens didn't, and there are no credible reports to the contrary - and neither will I.

Alan Burns

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #160 on: October 26, 2024, 06:10:24 PM »
The same was said about Charles Darwin and Bertrand Russell. It was rubbish in both cases, as I'm sure is this claim about CH, who is conveniently dead, and unable to contradict the claim.
How can you possibly be so sure?
No one knows what goes on in the mind of a person before they die.
All I am claiming is the possibility of a deathbed conversion - and that such a possibility would be denied to someone who gives up hope and deliberately ends their own life.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #161 on: October 26, 2024, 06:32:04 PM »
How can you possibly be so sure?
No one knows what goes on in the mind of a person before they die.
All I am claiming is the possibility of a deathbed conversion - and that such a possibility would be denied to someone who gives up hope and deliberately ends their own life.

Why do you think that someone like me, who may well elect for assisted suicide (legalities permitting), would in their final hours revisit an issue that in their/my mind had been settled decades earlier. Your use of 'hope' seems like code for magical thinking: which I'd say would not be a good use of my final days and hours.

By the same token - do you think that a lifelong Christian, such as yourself, could possibly abandon their faith at their end?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #162 on: October 26, 2024, 07:01:26 PM »
How can you possibly be so sure?
No one knows what goes on in the mind of a person before they die.
All I am claiming is the possibility of a deathbed conversion - and that such a possibility would be denied to someone who gives up hope and deliberately ends their own life.
Bit insulting to those who might choose to die with a bit of dignity, some of whom will be Christian.

jeremyp

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #163 on: October 27, 2024, 04:10:18 PM »

Larry Taunton, a friend of Christopher Hitchens claims this famous atheist may have turned to Christ before he died and wrote a book: The Faith of Christopher Hitchens: The Restless Soul of the World’s Most Notorious Atheist  There is always hope for us all.

This is total fabrication, so it looks like, on this occasion you were unable to discern Satan's lies from God's truth. Given this is the case, in what other ways might he have fooled you?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #164 on: October 27, 2024, 07:40:36 PM »
Why do you think that someone like me, who may well elect for assisted suicide (legalities permitting), would in their final hours revisit an issue that in their/my mind had been settled decades earlier. Your use of 'hope' seems like code for magical thinking: which I'd say would not be a good use of my final days and hours.
As long as you still have your gift of free will in this earthly life, there is always hope that you can turn to Christ as your Savior, no matter what has past in your earlier lifetime.
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By the same token - do you think that a lifelong Christian, such as yourself, could possibly abandon their faith at their end?
Yes, of course the Devil will always be ready to tempt Christians into the sin of despair at their most vulnerable moments.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #165 on: October 27, 2024, 08:20:42 PM »
As long as you still have your gift of free will in this earthly life, there is always hope that you can turn to Christ as your Savior, no matter what has past in your earlier lifetime.

Not going to happen, Alan: that I might be closer to the finish than I'd like in no way changes my considered assessment of Christianity: which is that it is fallacious nonsense.

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Yes, of course the Devil will always be ready to tempt Christians into the sin of despair at their most vulnerable moments.

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Outrider

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #166 on: October 28, 2024, 12:33:01 PM »
Your message reminds me that our life on this earth is the most precious thing we have.

I get this take on things, and I'm not suggesting that it isn't genuinely how you feel, and might be how you'd feel in all circumstances. All I can say is that I can envision situations where I wouldn't feel like that.

People talk about palliative care - and I accept that there are failings in that area for a range of reasons, not limited to underfunding of health and social care budgets, but including those - but pain management and function are not the only limits of quality of life

As I sit here, in my very early 50's, facing up to the prospect of ageing and what might or might not come with it, it's not the prospect of pain or lack of the full extent of my youthful capacities that worries me. I do find myself saddened by the very real prospect of a diminishment of my mental faculties, at some point, hopefully far, far away. But what really disturbs me, what makes me fear ageing now in a way I didn't fear ageing when I turned 30 or 40 is the prospect of being incapable.

The loss of dignity in being dependent, on needing the basics of life done for me, like a toddler, but cognizant of the fact. Diminishment of my physical capacity - having to be cooked for or tidied up after would be bad enough, needing home help to come and run the hoover round or do the painting and decorating would be saddening, but I think I could live with it.

But if I were to need someone to bath me, or help with toileting... I don't know that I'd want to go on living with that. It's not pain, it's not the definitive impending death of a terminal diagnosis (arguably, the open-endedness of it might be worse), it's about the lack of dignity and self-respect. I might get to that situation (hopefully not) and find that I can live with it better than I predict now... but somehow I don't think that would be the case.

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  Every day may bring opportunities you could never have imagined.  Opportunities to love, to be loved - in particular to discover the love of God which you have yet to experience.  My wife and I pray for you every day, Gordon - we are not giving up hope, we hope you do not give up either.

It might. But if that possibility is set against the certainty of daily indignity and humiliation, would those admittedly pleasant possibilities be enough to make going on worthwhile? Would it make up for being not just less of a human for my wife than the one she married, but such a burden on her, and on my children, and on my community? They might not feel that, but I think I would. I wouldn't just be setting me free, I'd be setting them free as well - I can't avoid death, but death doesn't scare me like dying does, and as dying scares me it's not something I want to do slowly.

Quote
Larry Taunton, a friend of Christopher Hitchens claims this famous atheist may have turned to Christ before he died and wrote a book: The Faith of Christopher Hitchens: The Restless Soul of the World’s Most Notorious Atheist  There is always hope for us all.

That commentary has been contradicted by just about every genuine friend and associate Hitchens had, and has to be seen not just in point of view of the hopeful Christianity of the author, but also in Taunton's inability to really see anyone else in their own right, but rather only in terms of their relationship to his interpretation of Christianity and scripture. See here for more in depth denunciation of that particular piece of writing.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #167 on: October 28, 2024, 01:05:16 PM »
The use of Taunton, and Taunton's abuse of Hitchems seems to me a spectacular own goal by Alan. It's the maunderings of a seedy self publicist who is more interested in the grift than anything else, and sees the truth as as nothing of note. It's the sort of shilling for their god that leads to lying, and ignores the person dying.

As jeremyp noted earlier, if there was a devil trying take Christianity look bad then getting Alan to tout this tawdry book would be a good trick.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2024, 01:14:36 PM by Nearly Sane »

Alan Burns

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #168 on: October 28, 2024, 03:51:29 PM »
The use of Taunton, and Taunton's abuse of Hitchems seems to me a spectacular own goal by Alan. It's the maunderings of a seedy self publicist who is more interested in the grift than anything else, and sees the truth as as nothing of note. It's the sort of shilling for their god that leads to lying, and ignores the person dying.

As jeremyp noted earlier, if there was a devil trying take Christianity look bad then getting Alan to tout this tawdry book would be a good trick.

You seem to be over reacting to my reference to Taunton.
from Wiki:
In 2016, Taunton published a book entitled The Faith of Christopher Hitchens about his friendship with the late atheist, in which he claimed that Hitchens seemed to be re-evaluating his religious options, "if only theoretically," after his cancer diagnosis.[18] But the author is nonetheless clear that he does not believe Christopher Hitchens made a deathbed conversion: "I make no Lady Hope-like claims regarding Christopher Hitchens. As we have seen, there were no reports of a deathbed conversion."

All I claimed was the possibility that Hitchens may have turned to Christ before he died.  No one can say whether he did or did not.  I hope for his sake that he did.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #169 on: October 28, 2024, 04:00:10 PM »
You seem to be over reacting to my reference to Taunton.
from Wiki:
In 2016, Taunton published a book entitled The Faith of Christopher Hitchens about his friendship with the late atheist, in which he claimed that Hitchens seemed to be re-evaluating his religious options, "if only theoretically," after his cancer diagnosis.[18] But the author is nonetheless clear that he does not believe Christopher Hitchens made a deathbed conversion: "I make no Lady Hope-like claims regarding Christopher Hitchens. As we have seen, there were no reports of a deathbed conversion."

All I claimed was the possibility that Hitchens may have turned to Christ before he died.  No one can say whether he did or did not.  I hope for his sake that he did.
I already quoted that. And I'm not sure why you think you are capable of judging whether I'm over reacting.
You are posting here praising someone making money out of lying.

You seem to have just ignored the various other posts covering the problems. It makes me quite sad Akan that you don't see the damage this does to your position.

Alan Burns

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #170 on: October 29, 2024, 09:24:59 AM »
I get this take on things, and I'm not suggesting that it isn't genuinely how you feel, and might be how you'd feel in all circumstances. All I can say is that I can envision situations where I wouldn't feel like that.

People talk about palliative care - and I accept that there are failings in that area for a range of reasons, not limited to underfunding of health and social care budgets, but including those - but pain management and function are not the only limits of quality of life

As I sit here, in my very early 50's, facing up to the prospect of ageing and what might or might not come with it, it's not the prospect of pain or lack of the full extent of my youthful capacities that worries me. I do find myself saddened by the very real prospect of a diminishment of my mental faculties, at some point, hopefully far, far away. But what really disturbs me, what makes me fear ageing now in a way I didn't fear ageing when I turned 30 or 40 is the prospect of being incapable.

The loss of dignity in being dependent, on needing the basics of life done for me, like a toddler, but cognizant of the fact. Diminishment of my physical capacity - having to be cooked for or tidied up after would be bad enough, needing home help to come and run the hoover round or do the painting and decorating would be saddening, but I think I could live with it.

But if I were to need someone to bath me, or help with toileting... I don't know that I'd want to go on living with that. It's not pain, it's not the definitive impending death of a terminal diagnosis (arguably, the open-endedness of it might be worse), it's about the lack of dignity and self-respect. I might get to that situation (hopefully not) and find that I can live with it better than I predict now... but somehow I don't think that would be the case.

It might. But if that possibility is set against the certainty of daily indignity and humiliation, would those admittedly pleasant possibilities be enough to make going on worthwhile? Would it make up for being not just less of a human for my wife than the one she married, but such a burden on her, and on my children, and on my community? They might not feel that, but I think I would. I wouldn't just be setting me free, I'd be setting them free as well - I can't avoid death, but death doesn't scare me like dying does, and as dying scares me it's not something I want to do slowly.
Looking at your post fills me with dread - no mention of our capacity to love and to be loved, and begs the question: When does the right to die become a duty to die?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #171 on: October 29, 2024, 09:58:46 AM »
Looking at your post fills me with dread - no mention of our capacity to love and to be loved, and begs the question: When does the right to die become a duty to die?
Your post fills me with sadness. Someone talks about their fears, and you just dismiss them because they haven't chimed with how you think people should express themselves.

And I also feel you didn't read it because when I read Outrider's post where he writes:  "Would it make up for being not just less of a human for my wife than the one she married, but such a burden on her, and on my children, and on my community? They might not feel that, but I think I would. I wouldn't just be setting me free, I'd be setting them free as well" that cries out about the capacity to love and be loved.

Gordon

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #172 on: October 29, 2024, 10:32:59 AM »
Looking at your post fills me with dread - no mention of our capacity to love and to be loved, and begs the question: When does the right to die become a duty to die?

You really do need to dispense with the theogoggles, Alan; elements of Outrider's recent post are a clear expression of love and concern for those dear to him - he encapsulates my thoughts, but expresses them more eloquently than I can.

I have a 'duty' to my family, and especially the younger members, in all sorts of ways so that they might survive and thrive in all the challenges they will face, which includes the reality of dealing with illness and loss - and I know for sure that they will have to deal with my death while they are still relatively young. Therefore, and bearing in mind that dealing with terminal cancer is often messy and involves uncertainty, there may come a time when there is far more certainty and it may be that then, when it is clear that there is no hope left for my survival, that my commitment to their welfare does justify looking at ways to at least minimise, for them, the trauma of the process of my demise.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2024, 10:47:24 AM by Gordon »

Outrider

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #173 on: October 29, 2024, 02:10:01 PM »
Looking at your post fills me with dread - no mention of our capacity to love and to be loved,

Maybe I didn't express it as clearly as I felt it, but not wanting to be a burden on my family is an expression of my love for them. Love is not something that happens inactively, it's not something you say, it's something you show in all the little parts of yourself and your day that you share with them. If my days are pain and dependency, what am I bringing to the relationship? What am I contributing to my marriage if my wife has had to become my carer? Would she do it - yes, in heartbeat, but it would fundamentally change the dynamic of our relationships. We'd no longer be partners in the same way, and that's not what either of us went into this for.

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and begs the question: When does the right to die become a duty to die?

Where in all that did you see me suggest that it was a duty? It's all a decision based on how I feel about it - perhaps you see that as a duty to myself?

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Alan Burns

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Re: Assisted Suicide bill to be debated in parliament
« Reply #174 on: October 29, 2024, 06:03:11 PM »

Where in all that did you see me suggest that it was a duty? It's all a decision based on how I feel about it - perhaps you see that as a duty to myself?

It is a decision which no one should feel under pressure to make.
But if it were legalised, there is no doubt that vulnerable people would feel put under such pressure.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton