Do owls have 3d hearing?

[SqueakyVoice]

I sent this question to a QIelf. I suspect the response I received read a bit autoreply-y, so I thought I should  post it here...

I have heard several people saying that owls have diagonal ears and that this gives them 3dimensional hearing (C Packham on Spring/ WinterWatch for one). As far as I can think every animal has two ears and has two dimensional hearing •|• (with ears • and the hearing plane | ). If an owl had these ears ' . , would that change the plane from '/. to 3d hearing?

The response I did get was...

Thank you Matthew! Brilliant fact/philosophical question.
All the best, Andy

Tbh, I suspect I might be right... Anyone?

[Nearly Sane]

I sent this question to a QIelf. I suspect the response I received read a bit autoreply-y, so I thought I should  post it here...The response I did get was...
Tbh, I suspect I might be right... Anyone?

Some explanation here. I suspect that this is more a spectrum than 2d vs 3d.


https://birding-world.com/interesting-facts-owls/

[SqueakyVoice]

Some explanation here. I suspect that this is more a spectrum than 2d vs 3d.


https://birding-world.com/interesting-facts-owls/

Their ears are located on either side of their head, at slightly different levels relative to their eyes. As a result of these ‘off-set’ ears,  sounds reach each ear from a slightly different direction. This provides the owl with a three-dimensional “aural map” of that sound, which allows them to pinpoints the sound’s location with incredible accuracy.
This is why, when you are standing quite far behind an owl and suddenly sneeze, they are able to turn their head all the way around and look straight at you.

When I've seen owls, they're on perches ar about 5-6ft.  So it I did sneeze (suddenly (at nearly 6ft)) they'd look straight at me. Which is understandable.  If I was lieing on the floor  or stood on branches at about 15ft high. Would they look straight at me? Or would they look at the plane (I started thinking about) and then look up or down to find out I was either above or below them?
I know it would take a lot a slow motion filming (& lots of sneezing) to study it. But I still think having two wonky ears gives them a wonky plane. If they did have 3 ears (preferably from an equilateral  triangle) they'd have 3d hearing but 2 ears only results in a 2d plane...?

[SqueakyVoice]

To ask a simpler question,; my two ears (are on my head) and they're horizontal. This give me a 2d hearing plane that is vertical.If I bent my head by 45° would I have 3d hearing or would the plane move to a 45° angle?

[jeremyp]

To ask a simpler question,; my two ears (are on my head) and they're horizontal. This give me a 2d hearing plane that is vertical.If I bent my head by 45° would I have 3d hearing or would the plane move to a 45° angle?

Your ears can only tell you which direction the sound is coming from in relation to its angle to a line drawn through your ears at a point half way between them. They can't tell you if it is above or below you, if it's in front or behind or how far away it is. If you move your head, you get its direction in relation to a different line which may help you triangulate it. If it moves out you know how loud it should be, you can get some range information.

Your hearing isn't even 2-D in reality but your brain helps a lot.

[SteveH]

I'd've thought all animals with two ears - certainly humans - had 3D hearing. We can tell what direction and elevation a sound is coming from.

[SqueakyVoice]

Your ears can only tell you which direction the sound is coming from in relation to its angle to a line drawn through your ears at a point half way between them. They can't tell you if it is above or below you, if it's in front or behind or how far away it is.

I'll accept that. I think the angle your receiving is more of a plane, so to whether the sound is nearer or further way or up or down /could/ be described as a plane, but whether or not probably isn't  relevant. 

you move your head, you get its direction in relation to a different line which may help you triangulate it. If it moves out you know how loud it should be, you can get some range information.
Your hearing isn't even 2-D in reality but your brain helps a lot.

So owls have 2ears (& presumably a brain).  Does that have the same system of hearing? Or do biologists over complicate it? (Because they couldn't  be bothered at getting a maths A-level? )

[SqueakyVoice]

I've just been thinking about whether trangulation is possible or not. Then I realised there is a fixed distance between my ears...

P.S. I watched Wonders of Life yesterday (me talking about iPlayer again) (Prof) Brian Cox said that human ears were extraordinarily  good, but he didn't  mention owls.

[Nearly Sane]

I've just been thinking about whether trangulation is possible or not. Then I realised there is a fixed distance between my ears...

P.S. I watched Wonders of Life yesterday (me talking about iPlayer again) (Prof) Brian Cox said that human ears were extraordinarily  good, but he didn't  mention owls.

Thanks for putting up the OP, I'm finding this fascinating.

While the fixed distance is correct, if zi hear a constant noise I can move my head, and the brain creates some kind of map based on that?

Di we get onto bats soon?

[SqueakyVoice]

Thanks for putting up the OP, I'm finding this fascinating.

While the fixed distance is correct, if zi hear a constant noise I can move my head, and the brain creates some kind of map based on that?

I think if you heard a noise and the sound was directly ahead the angle between your ears would be 90° (i.e. draw a line between these two ear dots and the sound starts at the top in the middle.  .|.If you moved your head the ears would move from left to right you'd find the angles changing from /to \ and back again.So if you kept moving your head you'd have these /|\That would give a good sense of where the sound was coming from, but not how high or low it was.
If you rotated your head (/ears) the angle would change from 90° to a different angle and if you rotated your head so your ears were vertically lined up like this ÷ then you'd know the sound was so far above you or below you like this '!' .(subject to correction from Jeremyp).
So, I think if you rotated your head it could change the angles your ears/ brain was receiving the sound. (There are times I think of trying to draw this 'diagrams' but they are in text, so I hope it isn't  too badly drawn.)

Di we get onto bats soon?

It's  bats and dolphins, iirc? Dolphins use SONAR not just to detect their prey but as a stun weapon. I think they're  all (bats & dolphins) creating their own sounds and using the echos as part of a detection tool.

[Nearly Sane]

I think if you heard a noise and the sound was directly ahead the angle between your ears would be 90° (i.e. draw a line between these two ear dots and the sound starts at the top in the middle.  .|.If you moved your head the ears would move from left to right you'd find the angles changing from /to \ and back again.So if you kept moving your head you'd have these /|\That would give a good sense of where the sound was coming from, but not how high or low it was.
If you rotated your head (/ears) the angle would change from 90° to a different angle and if you rotated your head so your ears were vertically lined up like this ÷ then you'd know the sound was so far above you or below you like this '!' .(subject to correction from Jeremyp).
So, I think if you rotated your head it could change the angles your ears/ brain was receiving the sound. (There are times I think of trying to draw this 'diagrams' but they are in text, so I hope it isn't  too badly drawn.)It's  bats and dolphins, iirc? Dolphins use SONAR not just to detect their prey but as a stun weapon. I think they're  all (bats & dolphins) creating their own sounds and using the echos as part of a detection tool.

Yes, I think there must be some modelling in the brain, and I know thar if I am trying to determine where a sounds is coming from I instinctively move my head about. I also have some muscle control of my ears - I'm quite good at wiggling them, and will 'prick them up' literally when listening intently
 

I was partly joking about bats but yes, it is sonar but I was wondering if their hearing is different or just more acute in some way to be able to use it.

[SqueakyVoice]

Yes, I think there must be some modelling in the brain, and I know thar if I am trying to determine where a sounds is coming from I instinctively move my head about. I also have some muscle control of my ears - I'm quite good at wiggling them, and will 'prick them up' literally when listening intently
 

I was partly joking about bats but yes, it is sonar but I was wondering if their hearing is different or just more acute in some way to be able to use it.

Again, relatively, bats have ears about as big as their heads? And , on the rare occasions  I've seen bats held by presenters they seem very capable of wiggling their heads around. So may be that give them some sense of 3d hearing?
Anyway, back to owls.* Again I might be guessing a bit more than I should, but I know owls can rotate their heads, but I know (& I don't  think) they can move their heads from one side to another. IF they could and IF they were investigating  a constant sound they COULD move there head from left to right and that /might/ give them a better  3d sound (much like humans and most other mammals).
But the sneeze is quoted at the beginning of your linked article so an instant sound could not be used for 3d by owls.


* - One day, we'll get back to bats. But that's  an AC/DC song.

[Nearly Sane]

Again, relatively, bats have ears about as big as their heads? And , on the rare occasions  I've seen bats held by presenters they seem very capable of wiggling their heads around. So may be that give them some sense of 3d hearing?
Anyway, back to owls.* Again I might be guessing a bit more than I should, but I know owls can rotate their heads, but I know (& I don't  think) they can move their heads from one side to another. IF they could and IF they were investigating  a constant sound they COULD move there head from left to right and that /might/ give them a better  3d sound (much like humans and most other mammals).
But the sneeze is quoted at the beginning of your linked article so an instant sound could not be used for 3d by owls.


* - One day, we'll get back to bats. But that's  an AC/DC song.

Agree, though there's then the idea of an intermittent sound. So owls may perceive short sounds in a a more 3d manner, but if a sound rehearsal, say the sound of a mouse walking, they could adjust the model with the new information.