Author Topic: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?  (Read 121 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« on: November 20, 2024, 09:38:28 AM »
I wonder if it is time for the C of E to follow the Church of Scotland practice of having a moderator rather than an AoC.
The Bishop of Newcastle seems most effective and given a five year tenure might achieve things Archbishop Welby failed to do.
The CoE may also want to review it's leadership of the World wide Anglican community and concentrate on matters English.
The Anglican community then becomes a looser agglomeration along relationship lines.
Tight little cliques with power exercised over decades could then disappear.

jeremyp

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2024, 09:53:58 AM »
I'm not quite sure how that is supposed to help.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2024, 09:57:23 AM »
I'm not quite sure how that is supposed to help.
Help what and help who?

jeremyp

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2024, 10:05:29 AM »
Help what and help who?

I assumed you had an idea of the answers to those two questions otherwise why bother suggesting the change? So, in summary, can you please tell me who or what it is supposed to help and how.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2024, 10:22:32 AM »
I assumed you had an idea of the answers to those two questions otherwise why bother suggesting the change? So, in summary, can you please tell me who or what it is supposed to help and how.
Sorry I was just trying to triangulate.
It helps to break up, neutralise and prevent the development of rotten and sclerotic networks and systems in the church.As demonstrated in Welby's tenure. It would help to prevents personification where the C o E becomes Welby or Runcie or anyone so ALL members of the Church are not seen as mini Welby's It prevents the concentration of power , it reduces the opportunities for patronage.

At the very least it seems Welby was stretched beyond his capacity and it is hard to see anyone not failing in the role.

jeremyp

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2024, 10:29:33 AM »
Sorry I was just trying to triangulate.
It helps to break up, neutralise and prevent the development of rotten and sclerotic networks and systems in the church.
How does it do that?

Quote
As demonstrated in Welby's tenure. It would help to prevents personification where the C o E becomes Welby or Runcie or anyone so ALL members of the Church are not seen as mini Welby's It prevents the concentration of power , it reduces the opportunities for patronage.
How does it reduce the opportunities for patronage?
Quote
At the very least it seems Welby was stretched beyond his capacity and it is hard to see anyone not failing in the role.

What if the moderator is stretched beyond his or her capacity? Why would changing the name of the role of CofE "chief executive" help in any way?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2024, 10:47:09 AM »
How does it do that?
The duration of tenure prevents accumulation of power in an individual, Power is spread and the period of tenure should be short enough to weed out those whose chief ambition is power.
Quote
How does it reduce the opportunities for patronage?
  It reduced the power and extent of the patron, again weeding out the ambitious.
Quote
What if the moderator is stretched beyond his or her capacity
That is a universal problem for anyone in a role but a moderator would not have as much scope to mess up as an A oC
Quote
Why would changing the name of the role of CofE "chief executive" help in any way?
It wouldn't just be a name change( see Role of the moderator of the Church of Scotland). I think CEOCOE is a bit of a crude analogy but I can certainly see how Welby's tenure might have given that impression

Gordon

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2024, 11:12:35 AM »
I'd have thought the first thing to do would be to disentangle the CofE from the affairs of state politics and get them out of the HofL.

Then they can sort out their own internal affairs with proper accountability without the rest of us being bothered,  unless there are legal cases that like other cases are of public interest.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2024, 03:58:27 PM »
I'd have thought the first thing to do would be to disentangle the CofE from the affairs of state politics and get them out of the HofL.
You might have thought it. I, like the previous AoC Rowan Williams was disestablishmentarian until I heard some of the noises some atheists were making and the atmosphere that generated.


Nearly Sane

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2024, 04:41:43 PM »
You might have thought it. I, like the previous AoC Rowan Williams was disestablishmentarian until I heard some of the noises some atheists were making and the atmosphere that generated.
Like what?


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2024, 05:00:09 PM »
Like what?
Well, for me it was talk of wanting religion out of the public forum and behind closed doors and religion being the root of all evil and even religious moderates pose a danger.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2024, 05:06:37 PM »
Well, for me it was talk of wanting religion out of the public forum and behind closed doors and religion being the root of all evil and even religious moderates pose a danger.
So if atheists saying something is affecting your view, it seems that the CoE harbouring and protecting a savage child molester doesn't? You seem a little confused in your approach, to the extent of being hypocritical.

Gordon

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2024, 05:12:18 PM »
Well, for me it was talk of wanting religion out of the public forum and behind closed doors and religion being the root of all evil and even religious moderates pose a danger.

You don't think then that the CofE already operates 'behind closed doors', given the current problem they are facing, by failing to act and keeping quiet about child abuse they were well aware of.?

Nice to see, at this time of year, that you've managed to hang on to some straw.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2024, 06:32:57 PM »
So if atheists saying something is affecting your view, it seems that the CoE harbouring and protecting a savage child molester doesn't? You seem a little confused in your approach, to the extent of being hypocritical.
Are you therefore identifying all associated with the CofE as savage child molesters and that is the raisin d’etre of the CofE? And do you also think that all associated with the CofE self identify as such?

I’m sure you want the Church to go away or is there some form in which you think it should continue.
How do you think disestablishment would prevent bad elements in the Cof E?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2024, 06:50:10 PM »
You don't think then that the CofE already operates 'behind closed doors', given the current problem they are facing, by failing to act and keeping quiet about child abuse they were well aware of.?

Nice to see, at this time of year, that you've managed to hang on to some straw.


https://thehumanist.com/voices/the_ethical_dilemma/humanist-dilemma-religion-banned/

Gordon

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2024, 07:03:36 PM »
And your point is?

I'm not a humanist, and I don't want to ban religion.
Did I say you did? If I did please accept my apologies. I said some did.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2024, 10:28:43 PM »
Are you therefore identifying all associated with the CofE as savage child molesters and that is the raisin d’etre of the CofE? And do you also think that all associated with the CofE self identify as such?

I’m sure you want the Church to go away or is there some form in which you think it should continue.
How do you think disestablishment would prevent bad elements in the Cof E?
No. But you did that about atheists so I merely played it back. Own it. Your link also doesn't show what you claim.


 
« Last Edit: Today at 07:00:09 AM by Nearly Sane »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #18 on: Today at 08:32:52 AM »
No. But you did that about atheists so I merely played it back. Own it. Your link also doesn't show what you claim.
OK If you don't mind that Enland still has a C of E established or not, the Anglican community in England is still stuck with itself being by way of ties that are more familial than geographical.
Clearly being an AoC of the past is nye on impossible so maybe voluntary disestablishment is on the cards but then the question remains, if there is religion in the country should that not be acknowledged at the political level and should an attitude of secularise to get rid of the evil of religion, prevail?

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #19 on: Today at 08:50:41 AM »
OK If you don't mind that Enland still has a C of E established or not, the Anglican community in England is still stuck with itself being by way of ties that are more familial than geographical.
Clearly being an AoC of the past is nye on impossible so maybe voluntary disestablishment is on the cards but then the question remains, if there is religion in the country should that not be acknowledged at the political level and should an attitude of secularise to get rid of the evil of religion, prevail?
A secular society isn't one with no religion. It's one where religion isn't privileged.

Outrider

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #20 on: Today at 09:07:49 AM »
Well, for me it was talk of wanting religion out of the public forum and behind closed doors...

Seems fair enough, we want policy based upon demonstrable facts, not supernatural suspicions.

Quote
and religion being the root of all evil

Not the root of all evil, but demonstrably a net negative in the world.

Quote
and even religious moderates pose a danger.

They don't pose a direct danger, but they validate the nonsense that's used by religious fanatics to justify their atrocities.

OK If you don't mind that Enland still has a C of E established or not

I object - it's up there with having a hereditary head of state as something with a lack of an moral justification, but it's lower on the list of priorities than, say, sorting out education or the health and care services.

Quote
the Anglican community in England is still stuck with itself being by way of ties that are more familial than geographical.

The problem is that, as an establshed church, even if they want to leave they're still stuck with them, we all are.

Quote
if there is religion in the country should that not be acknowledged at the political level and should an attitude of secularise to get rid of the evil of religion, prevail?

Banning it is counterproductive, it just feeds the martyr complex that's baked into, particularly, the Abrahamic religions. Better to just hold the structures to account when needed, and then ignore them when they're casting their spells, and with time they'll just drift further and further into irrelevance. We don't need to 'get rid' of them, they'll just wither away on their own.

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jeremyp

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #21 on: Today at 09:19:19 AM »
The duration of tenure prevents accumulation of power in an individual, Power is spread and the period of tenure should be short enough to weed out those whose chief ambition is power.  It reduced the power and extent of the patron, again weeding out the ambitious.That is a universal problem for anyone in a role but a moderator would not have as much scope to mess up as an A oCIt wouldn't just be a name change( see Role of the moderator of the Church of Scotland). I think CEOCOE is a bit of a crude analogy but I can certainly see how Welby's tenure might have given that impression

But you introduce a new problem in that, with a new leader each year, there is no long term vision. A fixed term Arch bishop might be a good idea, but I would go with five years.
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jeremyp

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #22 on: Today at 09:20:49 AM »
I'd have thought the first thing to do would be to disentangle the CofE from the affairs of state politics and get them out of the HofL.
That's nothing to do with the problems that currently exist in the CofE.

Quote
Then they can sort out their own internal affairs with proper accountability without the rest of us being bothered,  unless there are legal cases that like other cases are of public interest.
I don't see anything stopping them from doing that now, in practice.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The Church of Englad.Time for a moderator?
« Reply #23 on: Today at 09:43:44 AM »
...
Not the root of all evil, but demonstrably a net negative in the world....

Demonstrate thar it is, taking into account that the traits that give rise to it would have to be removed from humanity for it to be shown.