Pupils 'sob' as vicar discusses existence of Santa

[Nearly Sane]

All the fairy tales get confusing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgr9v1ppglo

[Gordon]

The penny dropped for my now 11 year old grandson last year - and even he had enough sense to not disillusion his little sister.

I know from personal experience, since I do a bit of Santa-ing (I have one essential qualification) that kids younger than 8/9 tend to believe in Santa. They can be very enthusiastic (I mostly see them in groups, such as at school Xmas parties, rather than individually).

[Nearly Sane]

I do wonder why Christianity is more generally anti-Santa. If you build in having to tell children at some point that you've just been pretending, then it's not a great jump for them ro wonder about how reliable your other miraculous claims are.

[Gordon]

There are times my conscience bothers me - but of course kids are surrounded by Santa imagery anyway, and up to a certain age in kids, many adults maintain the lie. I never had to tell my kids, or my older grandkids, that there was no Santa - they worked that out for themselves, as our Struan did last year at age 10 - so I amazed at the furore over this incident, since it involved kids aged 10/11.

But younger kids just see Santa and don't tend to query what they see - my 5 year old grandson was in the group I did the other day: he saw Santa and not his own grandfather. I've learned that it's very powerful image for younger kids: mess with it at your peril!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I do wonder why Christianity is more generally anti-Santa. If you build in having to tell children at some point that you've just been pretending, then it's not a great jump for them ro wonder about how reliable your other miraculous claims are.

Utterly and boringly predictable response.

[Nearly Sane]

Utterly and boringly predictable response.

So what's the answer? Why lie to children deliberately about something you tie up in your iconography that you know you will reveal to them as being false?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So what's the answer? Why lie to children deliberately about something you tie up in your iconography that you know you will reveal to them as being false?

Church anti Santa? Do you have evidence for that?
And then there's the inevitable hint of 'how come Christians don't also believe in Santa trope'.
Leprechauns and similar elves must be on the horizon.

A C of E minister muffed up. Surely we can take that in our stride?

[Nearly Sane]

Church anti Santa? Do you have evidence for that?
And then there's the inevitable hint of 'how come Christians don't also believe in Santa trope'.
Leprechauns and similar elves must be on the horizon.

A C of E minister muffed up. Surely we can take that in our stride?

No, I'm saying I'm surprised they aren't more anti Santa. I'm wondering why they package up something that they will have to reveal as a lie. It's not really to do with the individual case other than it triggered me to wonder why have a miraculous claim that some avatar of a saint travels round the world in one night giving out presents, when you know it will be revealed/discovered to be untrue?

[Steve H]

There are times my conscience bothers me - but of course kids are surrounded by Santa imagery anyway, and up to a certain age in kids, many adults maintain the lie. I never had to tell my kids, or my older grandkids, that there was no Santa - they worked that out for themselves, as our Struan did last year at age 10 - so I amazed at the furore over this incident, since it involved kids aged 10/11.

But younger kids just see Santa and don't tend to query what they see - my 5 year old grandson was in the group I did the other day: he saw Santa and not his own grandfather. I've learned that it's very powerful image for younger kids: mess with it at your peril!

What do you say if a kid asks you if you're really Santa? I read somewhere that the standard tactic, to avoid telling an outright lie on one hand or disillusioning the kid on the other, is to say something like "Well, I look like him, don't I?", to which the kid says "yes", to which the Santa impersonator says "Well, there you are then!".

[Roses]

As a young  child I saw a person dressed as Santa, I was really scared. I didn't want him bringing my stocking up to my bedroom and asked my parents to do it for him. Our eldest girl, when she was three, worked out for herself that it would be impossible for Santa to deliver all the stockings to children in one night.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Church anti Santa? Do you have evidence for that?
And then there's the inevitable hint of 'how come Christians don't also believe in Santa trope'.
Leprechauns and similar elves must be on the horizon.

A C of E minister muffed up. Surely we can take that in our stride?

God and Santa are epistemically equivalent - ie, there’s no evidence for either so those who believe in them do so as matters of faith. The point here I think is that the vicar was on very thin ice.

[Gordon]

What do you say if a kid asks you if you're really Santa? I read somewhere that the standard tactic, to avoid telling an outright lie on one hand or disillusioning the kid on the other, is to say something like "Well, I look like him, don't I?", to which the kid says "yes", to which the Santa impersonator says "Well, there you are then!".

They tend not to - that my beard is real seems to make a huge and immediate difference to my 'credibility', especially if they have previously encountered an 'imposter' Santa with a fake beard 

One girl, about 5 or 6 years old, just last week, told me that she knew I was really Santa because when I spoke my beard also moved, whereas the Santa she saw in the garden centre had a beard that stayed still while his lips moved underneath - can't argue with that!

[jeremyp]

The penny dropped for my now 11 year old grandson last year - and even he had enough sense to not disillusion his little sister.

I know from personal experience, since I do a bit of Santa-ing (I have one essential qualification) that kids younger than 8/9 tend to believe in Santa. They can be very enthusiastic (I mostly see them in groups, such as at school Xmas parties, rather than individually).

I remember quite clearly standing in the school hall before assembly with my friends discussing how big Santa's sack would have to be to carry everybody's presents. The consensus was "probably as big as this hall". The fact we were having the conversation means we must all have been aware of Santa's non-realness already. I'd have been about eight and a half then, so that fits. However, I am always suspicious of people who say their kid still believes in Father Christmas. Once you have the realisation that he doesn't exist and therefore your parents are doing the presents, there is a very strong incentive not to let them know you've sussed them out.

[Steve H]

Church anti Santa? Do you have evidence for that?
And then there's the inevitable hint of 'how come Christians don't also believe in Santa trope'.
Leprechauns and similar elves must be on the horizon.

A C of E minister muffed up. Surely we can take that in our stride?

Vlad,

God and Santa are epistemically equivalent - ie, there’s no evidence for either so those who believe in them do so as matters of faith. The point here I think is that the vicar was on very thin ice.

Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber are in the building.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SteveH,

Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber are in the building.

Which part of what I said is confusing you?

[Gordon]

I remember quite clearly standing in the school hall before assembly with my friends discussing how big Santa's sack would have to be to carry everybody's presents. The consensus was "probably as big as this hall". The fact we were having the conversation means we must all have been aware of Santa's non-realness already. I'd have been about eight and a half then, so that fits. However, I am always suspicious of people who say their kid still believes in Father Christmas. Once you have the realisation that he doesn't exist and therefore your parents are doing the presents, there is a very strong incentive not to let them know you've sussed them out.

It was just after last Xmas when we realised that our Struan, then aged 10, had stopped believing in Santa long before Xmas arrived. I remember asking him why he didn't say anything sooner, and his reply was that he didn't want to upset us.

[jeremyp]

It was just after last Xmas when we realised that our Struan, then aged 10, had stopped believing in Santa long before Xmas arrived. I remember asking him why he didn't say anything sooner, and his reply was that he didn't want to upset us.

But does Santa Claus still visit?

He was still visiting our house when I was in my late teens.

[bluehillside Retd.]

jeremyp,

But does Santa Claus still visit?

He was still visiting our house when I was in my late teens.

Exactly! Proof positive of his existence I’d say.

Also, for further proof that Santa is real:

1. That’s my faith.

2. Doubters rely on “mere intellectual assent” for their beliefs.

3. You can’t disprove it.

4. Lots of people believe in Santa.

5. He’s magic inne.

6. You cannot assume that materialistic properties must also apply to an intermittently non-material Santa.

7. I really, really wanted a bike last Christmas and even wrote that down on a piece of paper. A bike duty arrived. How do you explain that then Mr Materialist?

8. I find the belief that Santa is real very comforting. Therefore Santa is real.

9. For all those presents to appear on the same morning like that Santa must be a “necessary entity”. QED.

10. Children are rewarded by Santa if they behave well. Therefore children behave well. Therefore objective childhood morality exists. Therefore Santa.     

11. In a multiverse everything that can be, is - therefore Santa is real somewhere.

Other theistic - er, I mean Santa-istic arguments are available

That’s settled then I think.

[Steve H]

jeremyp,

Exactly! Proof positive of his existence I’d say.

Also, for further proof that Santa is real:

1. That’s my faith.

2. Doubters rely on “mere intellectual assent” for their beliefs.

3. You can’t disprove it.

4. Lots of people believe in Santa.

5. He’s magic inne.

6. You cannot assume that materials properties must also apply to an intermittently non-material Santa.

7. I really, really wanted a bike last Christmas and even wrote that down on a piece of paper. A bike duty arrived. How do you explain that then Mr Materialist?

8. I find the belief that Santa is real very comforting. Therefore Santa is real.

9. For all those presents to appear on the same morning like that Santa must be a “necessary entity”. QED.

10. Children are rewarded by Santa if they behave well. Therefore children behave better. Therefore objective childhood morality exists. Therefore Santa.     

11. In a multiverse everything that can be, is - therefore Santa is real somewhere.

Other theistic - er, I mean Santa-istic arguments are available

That’s settled then I think.

Ho fucking ho fucking ho.

[bluehillside Retd.]

SteveH,

Ho fucking ho fucking ho.

Glad you agree. Have you hung up your stocking yet – after all, Pascal's wager is another argument for belief in God Santa so what have you got to lose?

[Gordon]

But does Santa Claus still visit?

He was still visiting our house when I was in my late teens.

Not sure - the 8 year old is expressing doubts, and since she joins me in my Santa-ing, as an Elf, I suspect the penny has already  dropped for her.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

God and Santa are epistemically equivalent - ie, there’s no evidence for either so those who believe in them do so as matters of faith. The point here I think is that the vicar was on very thin ice.

Apparently though we are looking for a fat male Caucasian. Domiciled in the Arctic.
Though many have been found meeting that description all interrogated have found to be impersonating said character.

[jeremyp]

jeremyp,

Exactly! Proof positive of his existence I’d say.

Also, for further proof that Santa is real:

1. That’s my faith.

2. Doubters rely on “mere intellectual assent” for their beliefs.

3. You can’t disprove it.

4. Lots of people believe in Santa.

5. He’s magic inne.

6. You cannot assume that materialistic properties must also apply to an intermittently non-material Santa.

7. I really, really wanted a bike last Christmas and even wrote that down on a piece of paper. A bike duty arrived. How do you explain that then Mr Materialist?

8. I find the belief that Santa is real very comforting. Therefore Santa is real.

9. For all those presents to appear on the same morning like that Santa must be a “necessary entity”. QED.

10. Children are rewarded by Santa if they behave well. Therefore children behave well. Therefore objective childhood morality exists. Therefore Santa.     

11. In a multiverse everything that can be, is - therefore Santa is real somewhere.

Other theistic - er, I mean Santa-istic arguments are available

That’s settled then I think.

I wrote my Christmas letter to Santa asking for something really expensive and I didn't get it.

You can ask Santa for something but sometimes the answer is ho ho.

[jeremyp]

Apparently though we are looking for a fat male Caucasian.

With a white beard?

Come to think of it, you never see God and Santa in the same room...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

With a white beard?

Come to think of it, you never see God and Santa in the same room...

This guy's a bit too thin in the face and shows no evidence of Coca Cola...