Pupils 'sob' as vicar discusses existence of Santa

[jeremyp]

This guy's a bit too thin in the face and shows no evidence of Coca Cola...

It was painted more than 300 years before Coca Cola existed. Why would you expect evidence of it?

Also, Coca Cola has  lot of sugar in it. No doubt he put on weight because part of the sponsorship deal was a lifetime's supply of coke.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Apparently though we are looking for a fat male Caucasian. Domiciled in the Arctic.

And apparently too (according to the OT) “God” has manifested physically three times as a man, once in a burning bush that was not consumed and four times as an angel. Both your god and Santa are it seems theophanous in character - able to flit in and out of the material at will. 
 

Though many have been found meeting that description all interrogated have found to be impersonating said character.

Just as all interrogations of swans at one time found them to be white. Been a while since you tried the induction fallacy though – welcome back! 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

And apparently too (according to the OT) “God” has manifested physically three times as a man, once in a burning bush that was not consumed and four times as an angel. Both your god and Santa are it seems theophanous in character - able to flit in and out of the material at will. 
 
Just as all interrogations of swans at one time found them to be white. Been a while since you tried the induction fallacy though – welcome back!

I think we have to put these biblical manifestations against the belief that Jesus is both Man AND God.
It is the humanity which is detected as physical ( but then there is also the spiritual nature of man to ponder) and the divine which is sensed spiritually rather than physically.

The other revelations appear a little too short to sort out which components are physical or psychological or spiritual.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I think we have to put these biblical manifestations against the belief that Jesus is both Man AND God.
It is the humanity which is detected as physical ( but then there is also the spiritual nature of man to ponder) and the divine which is sensed spiritually rather than physically.

The other revelations appear a little too short to sort out which components are physical or psychological or spiritual.

You can put anything against anything else you like. The fact remains that there are various narratives that have your god as flitting between material and non-material states, and there are various narratives that have Santa flitting between material and non-material states. 

It’s the same claim albeit with different objects, and no amount of incoherent casuistry changes that.

[Gordon]

I think we have to put these biblical manifestations against the belief that Jesus is both Man AND God.

And reject them since the idea that someone is concurrently both human and not human is nonsensical.

It is the humanity which is detected as physical ( but then there is also the spiritual nature of man to ponder) and the divine which is sensed spiritually rather than physically.

A great example of both begging the question, and please describe how spiritual senses actually work and can be investigated and substantiated.

The other revelations appear a little too short to sort out which components are physical or psychological or spiritual.

Perhaps then 'revelations' have insufficient merit to be taken seriously.

[jeremyp]

I think we have to put these biblical manifestations against the belief that Jesus is both Man AND God.
It is the humanity which is detected as physical ( but then there is also the spiritual nature of man to ponder) and the divine which is sensed spiritually rather than physically.

The other revelations appear a little too short to sort out which components are physical or psychological or spiritual.

I thought your claim is that Jesus is fully God and fully human. If you are now claiming that his physical manifestation is not God, then you must be asserting that Jesus is not fully God.

Also, you seem to be claiming that Michelangelo didn't know what God looked like and painted a lie on the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I thought your claim is that Jesus is fully God and fully human. If you are now claiming that his physical manifestation is not God, then you must be asserting that Jesus is not fully God.

Also, you seem to be claiming that Michelangelo didn't know what God looked like and painted a lie on the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

A person can be both human AND the life and soul of the party.
An artist, like the rest of us registers a physical human but may
not register a party animal.

Michael Angelo was an artist and would have presented us with an image he would not have dreamed that anyone would take as an actual physical God.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

A person can be both human AND the life and soul of the party.

But he’s still the same physical entity remember?

An artist, like the rest of us registers a physical human but may
not register a party animal.

But the artist still portrays the same physical entity regardless of what other properties it may have.

Michael Angelo was an artist and would have presented us with an image he would not have dreamed that anyone would take as an actual physical God.

Why do you think that? In that case though, the graphic artist working for Coca-Cola who put Santa in a red coat and gave him a beard would not have dreamed that anyone would take that as an actual physical Santa either. What’s sauce for the goose and all that… 

[jeremyp]

A person can be both human AND the life and soul of the party.

The life and soul of every party I have ever been to was fully human.

An artist, like the rest of us registers a physical human but may
not register a party animal.

Michael Angelo was an artist and would have presented us with an image he would not have dreamed that anyone would take as an actual physical God.

You know the mind of Michelangelo? I find that hard to believe. The image is meant to be God. I see no evidence that Michelangelo didn't believe it was an accurate representation.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The life and soul of every party I have ever been to was fully human.
You know the mind of Michelangelo? I find that hard to believe. The image is meant to be God. I see no evidence that Michelangelo didn't believe it was an accurate representation.

Yes every life and soul of the party is also fully human, but not every human is the life and soul of the party and even those who are both are often not recognised or acknowledged as such.

Michael Angelo would have in all likelihood recognised that God was not a giant man in the catholic faith and that such representations were metaphorical and artistic.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

But he’s still the same physical entity remember?

But who is closest to the mark? The person who recognises this person as the life and soul of the party, the person who thinks they are an insufferable show of, or the autist who merely recognised that this person is making a sound and moving their hands?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

You can put anything against anything else you like. The fact remains that there are various narratives that have your god as flitting between material and non-material states, and there are various narratives that have Santa flitting between material and non-material states. 

It’s the same claim albeit with different objects, and no amount of incoherent casuistry changes that.

You are proposing a ‘flit’ between states but the Christian proposal is there is no such ‘flitting’
That Jesus is both physical and divine and since it is Christian proposals being considered we have to include it because that is how it is proposed God operates.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad
 
Just as all interrogations of swans at one time found them to be white. Been a while since you tried the induction fallacy though – welcome back!

But there is nothing in the statements”All interrogated have been found not to be the genuine article” which suggests that future interrogations and interrogated will not be Santa. You seem to have lost your touch a bit.

[Gordon]

You are proposing a ‘flit’ between states but the Christian proposal is there is no such ‘flitting’
That Jesus is both physical and divine and since it is Christian proposals being considered we have to include it because that is how it is proposed God operates.

That is just assertion, Vlad: nothing more than that. If this claim is just a 'proposal' then how do you know, as opposed to believe, that this 'proposal' can be verified. 

I'll be 'Santa-ing' to a bunch of 6 year olds this afternoon, and even setting aside that I'm not actually 'Santa', the critical faculties of my audience today will not involve me being subjected to any kind of interrogation - it's seasonal fiction that spawns in different formats (such as letters to Santa) - and the adults who are responsible for these kids know that, but for now at least they encourage these kids to have 'faith' in 'Santa'.

But many Christians who accept the 'proposal' you mention as a matter of personal faith are adults who seem to me to be exercising their critical faculties to the same extent as the kids I'll see later today - as in 'not at all', but at least the kids have the excuse of childhood and complete trust in the adults that perpetuate the Santa lies, and I am obviously guilty of that too.

So it seems to me that belief in 'God' and belief in 'Santa' involve equivalent levels of naivety - but at least the youthful 'Santa-ists' tend to abandon the belief as their critical faculties develop.

Ho Ho Ho.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That is just assertion, Vlad: nothing more than that. If this claim is just a 'proposal' then how do you know, as opposed the believe, that this 'proposal' can be verified. 

I'll be 'Santa-ing' to a bunch of 6 year olds this afternoon, and even setting aside that I'm not actually 'Santa', the critical faculties of my audience today will not involve me being subjected to any kind of interrogation - it's seasonal fiction that spawns in different formats (such as letters to Santa) - and the adults who are responsible for these kids know that, but for now at least they encourage these kids to have 'faith' in 'Santa'.

But many Christians who accept the 'proposal' you mention as a matter of personal faith are adults who seem to me to be exercising their critical faculties to the same extent as the kids I'll see later today - as in 'not at all', but at least the kids have the excuse of childhood and complete trust in the adults that perpetuate the Santa lies, and I am obviously guilty of that too.

So it seems to me that belief in 'God' and belief in 'Santa' involve equivalent levels of naivety - but at least the youthful 'Santa-ists' tend to abandon the belief as their critical faculties develop.

Ho Ho Ho.

But Gordon, Hillside proposed that God flits between states....and you remained silent.
He had misrepresented the Christian proposal....and you remained silent.
Therefore I can dismiss your post as partisan.
The equation of Santa and God is horses laugh.
And now......I will remain silent.

[Gordon]

But Gordon, Hillside proposed that God flits between states....and you remained silent.
He had misrepresented the Christian proposal....and you remained silent.

The 'Christian proposal' is so incoherent that all one can do is point that out: that it presents as incoherent nonsense isn't misrepresentation, Vlad - it's a critique.

Therefore I can dismiss your post as partisan.

I think I can cope with that.

The equation of Santa and God is horses laugh.

Perhaps you should try a spot of 'Santa-ing' yourself - to be on the receiving end of mindless devotion to a lie is quite an experience. Beyond the enjoyable 'performance' aspect, it does make one think about how blindingly obvious myth and lies can have real-world currency.
 

And now......I will remain silent.

Good idea.

[jeremyp]

Yes every life and soul of the party is also fully human, but not every human is the life and soul of the party and even those who are both are often not recognised or acknowledged as such.

I get it. God is human.

Michael Angelo would have in all likelihood recognised that God was not a giant man in the catholic faith and that such representations were metaphorical and artistic.

Evidence?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I get it. God is human.
Evidence?

I'm not sure you do get it although biblically Jesus ascended ( was assumed?) 'Into heaven'. It would be closer to say God was incarnated as Jesus Christ, both his humanity and divinity intact. I might even disagree with you though that humans are an  entirely physical entity
Michaelangelo was a Roman Catholic who apparently leant into some Lutheran views. As such He would likely have accepted the biblical declaration that God is spirit and also the creeds.
If you are suggesting that the God represented by Michaelangelo is, an older Jesus then I'd be interested to hear your reasons for that proposal.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

But who is closest to the mark? The person who recognises this person as the life and soul of the party, the person who thinks they are an insufferable show of, or the autist who merely recognised that this person is making a sound and moving their hands?

Irrelevant. Whatever characteristics or behaviours the material person has, they’re still a material person. Your god and Santa on the other hand can, according to their respective stories, flit from material to non-material at will.

Try to remember this - in this respect, the two stories are the same.   

You are proposing a ‘flit’ between states but the Christian proposal is there is no such ‘flitting’
That Jesus is both physical and divine and since it is Christian proposals being considered we have to include it because that is how it is proposed God operates.

Yes there is. According to the OT part of your “holy” books, your god was immaterial when he felt like it and then variously a material man, a material burning bush, a material wind, material angels and various other material phenomena when he felt like manifesting as those instead. That’s the flitting part.

But there is nothing in the statements”All interrogated have been found not to be the genuine article” which suggests that future interrogations and interrogated will not be Santa. You seem to have lost your touch a bit.

Wrong again. If not for the inductive reasoning error, what point did you think you were making by telling us that all previous interrogations of supposed Santas had found them to be men in red suits and false beards? What did you think that tells us about whether or not the next interrogation will turn up the real deal instead? 

[Steve H]

Michael Angelo would have in all likelihood recognised that God was not a giant man in the catholic faith and that such representations were metaphorical and artistic.

Who is this "Michael Angelo" of whom you speak?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Irrelevant. Whatever characteristics or behaviours the material person has, they’re still a material person. Your god and Santa on the other hand can, according to their respective stories, flit from material to non-material at will.

Try to remember this - in this respect, the two stories are the same.   

Yes there is. According to the OT part of your “holy” books, your god was immaterial when he felt like it and then variously a material man, a material burning bush, a material wind, material angels and various other material phenomena when he felt like manifesting as those instead. That’s the flitting part.

Wrong again. If not for the inductive reasoning error, what point did you think you were making by telling us that all previous interrogations of supposed Santas had found them to be men in red suits and false beards? What did you think that tells us about whether or not the next interrogation will turn up the real deal instead?

There is no suggestion that God is reduced to being merely a burning Bush, an angel or even a human being. Nothing to suggest he changes from being spirit, something explicitly stated in the new Testament. In other words you are wrong about the Christian proposal. You haven't prepared, got it wrong and are just doubling down.

[Gordon]

There is no suggestion that God is reduced to being merely a burning Bush, an angel or even a human being. Nothing to suggest he changes from being spirit, something explicitly stated in the new Testament.

But the NT claims can readily be dismissed as superstitious assertion - due a lack of evidence, imprecise definition or a method to detect this non-human 'spirit' aspect.

In other words you are wrong about the Christian proposal. You haven't prepared, got it wrong and are just doubling down.

Not sure if it is of any import to be accused of being 'wrong' about something that cannot be demonstrated to be 'right' in the first place.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But the NT claims can readily be dismissed as superstitious assertion - due a lack of evidence, imprecise definition or a method to detect this non-human 'spirit' aspect.

Not sure if it is of any import to be accused of being 'wrong' about something that cannot be demonstrated to be 'right' in the first place.

Yes we know you don't take the proposal seriously, that's old hat. The issue here is Bluehillside' misrepresentation of the proposal.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

There is no suggestion that God is reduced to being merely a burning Bush, an angel or even a human being.

There is no suggestion that Santa is reduced to being merely a hirsute man in a red suit either. 

Nothing to suggest he changes from being spirit, something explicitly stated in the new Testament.

Nothing to suggest Santa changes from being a magic entity able to visit every child in the course of one night, as stated in the multiple books and stories. 

In other words you are wrong about the Christian proposal. You haven't prepared, got it wrong and are just doubling down.

In other words, you’re straw manning again. If “the Christian proposal” is a god flitting at will into physical form but somehow without simultaneously relinquishing his non-material self, then the Santa proposal is the same thing. Why would you double down on thinking that when Santa is in human form he also stops being magic?     

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Yes we know you don't take the proposal seriously, that's old hat. The issue here is Bluehillside' misrepresentation of the proposal.

Your straw manning of what Bluehillside actually says isn't Bluehillside's misrepresentation. Please stop lying about this.