Isaiah 7:14

[Spud]

Can you explain from the gospels where the miracle of the watered desert occurred?

When Jesus said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven", demonstrating divine grace, which is the streams of water (cf. John 7:38). He then healed the man so that they would know that he had authority to forgive sins.
The streams of water in Isaiah 35:6 represent God's grace in rescuing the people from exile in Babylon, as a result of which (for waters break forth in the wilderness, etc) they are healed of their spiritual sickness and return to him (v 8 And a highway shall be there,
and it shall be called the Way of Holiness).
Note that in both Isaiah 35 and the healing of the paralytic, forgiveness precedes healing.
Cf also Psalm 42:1 in which the soul that longs after Jehovah is represented by a deer that pants for water.
And Isaiah 44:3 where the thirsty land is the people, and the water poured on it is the Spirit.// John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'". 39Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive

[jeremyp]

When Jesus said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven", demonstrating divine grace, which is the streams of water (cf. John 7:38). He then healed the man so that they would know that he had authority to forgive sins.
The streams of water in Isaiah 35:6 represent God's grace in rescuing the people from exile in Babylon, as a result of which (for waters break forth in the wilderness, etc) they are healed of their spiritual sickness and return to him (v 8 And a highway shall be there,
and it shall be called the Way of Holiness).
Note that in both Isaiah 35 and the healing of the paralytic, forgiveness precedes healing.
Cf also Psalm 42:1 in which the soul that longs after Jehovah is represented by a deer that pants for water.
And Isaiah 44:3 where the thirsty land is the people, and the water poured on it is the Spirit.// John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'". 39Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive

Yeah, that's utter bollocks. Sorry, but you really are reaching.

[Dicky Underpants]

When Jesus said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven", demonstrating divine grace, which is the streams of water (cf. John 7:38). He then healed the man so that they would know that he had authority to forgive sins.
The streams of water in Isaiah 35:6 represent God's grace in rescuing the people from exile in Babylon, as a result of which (for waters break forth in the wilderness, etc) they are healed of their spiritual sickness and return to him (v 8 And a highway shall be there,
and it shall be called the Way of Holiness).
Note that in both Isaiah 35 and the healing of the paralytic, forgiveness precedes healing.
Cf also Psalm 42:1 in which the soul that longs after Jehovah is represented by a deer that pants for water.
And Isaiah 44:3 where the thirsty land is the people, and the water poured on it is the Spirit.// John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'". 39Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive

What are your criteria for deciding whether an OT prophecy gets a literal or a metaphorical fulfilment? We know that Jesus is recorded as healing a paralytic and a blind man, which if true would certainly be a literal fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy. However, it does just seem that you've realised that there is no direct literal fulfilment of the second part of the text, so you decide there must be a metaphorical interpretation. It doesn't sound very convincing. That way you can make the Bible say anything you like, and fit any situation you like. I'm sure the JWs (for instance) are at this very minute interpretating Putin as "The King of the North" mentioned in Revelation. Mainstream trinitarian evangelicals are just as bad.

[Spud]

What are your criteria for deciding whether an OT prophecy gets a literal or a metaphorical fulfilment? We know that Jesus is recorded as healing a paralytic and a blind man, which if true would certainly be a literal fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy. However, it does just seem that you've realised that there is no direct literal fulfilment of the second part of the text, so you decide there must be a metaphorical interpretation. It doesn't sound very convincing. That way you can make the Bible say anything you like, and fit any situation you like. I'm sure the JWs (for instance) are at this very minute interpretating Putin as "The King of the North" mentioned in Revelation. Mainstream trinitarian evangelicals are just as bad.

In Isaiah, God reveals himself by foretelling what is going to happen - that Israel will be sent into exile, and then he will come to save them and restore them to fellowship with him in the promised land. When this comes to pass, Israel and the nations will know that Jehovah is God, and there is no other. This prophecy was literally fulfilled. But the problem was that they were still sinful.

In the gospels, Jesus heals a paralytic, in order to reveal that he has authority to forgive sins.

The healing and watering miracles in Isaiah 35 are metaphors for the spiritual miracle of conversion; but that conversion is enabled through the literal miracle of Isaiah's prophecy (exile and return from exile) being fulfilled. Likewise, Jesus' literal miracles opened peoples' eyes to what he came to do spiritually, to restore them to fellowship with God by dealing with sin.

So I think that claiming the gospel writers cherry-picked prophecies to be fulfilled doesn't work. The big picture is that Jesus fulfilled Isaiah by doing what God did for Israel: he announced in advance what he was going to do, in order that people would believe in him.

[jeremyp]

In Isaiah, God reveals himself by foretelling what is going to happen - that Israel will be sent into exile, and then he will come to save them and restore them to fellowship with him in the promised land. When this comes to pass, Israel and the nations will know that Jehovah is God, and there is no other. This prophecy was literally fulfilled. But the problem was that they were still sinful.

In the gospels, Jesus heals a paralytic, in order to reveal that he has authority to forgive sins.

The healing and watering miracles in Isaiah 35 are metaphors for the spiritual miracle of conversion; but that conversion is enabled through the literal miracle of Isaiah's prophecy (exile and return from exile) being fulfilled. Likewise, Jesus' literal miracles opened peoples' eyes to what he came to do spiritually, to restore them to fellowship with God by dealing with sin.

So I think that claiming the gospel writers cherry-picked prophecies to be fulfilled doesn't work. The big picture is that Jesus fulfilled Isaiah by doing what God did for Israel: he announced in advance what he was going to do, in order that people would believe in him.

You just made up a load of guff about Jesus fulfilling prophecies that are not about him: you can't claim you are not cherry picking.

Jesus didn't do what God did - even if by "God" you mean Cyrus the Great of Persia who was the one who restored the Jews to the promised land.

Your whole argument is completely contrived and nobody who isn't already a Christian buys it.

[Spud]

You just made up a load of guff about Jesus fulfilling prophecies that are not about him: you can't claim you are not cherry picking.

Jesus didn't do what God did - even if by "God" you mean Cyrus the Great of Persia who was the one who restored the Jews to the promised land.

Your whole argument is completely contrived and nobody who isn't already a Christian buys it.

Well the fact is that you are asking good questions. You wanted to know where in the NT is the miracle of streams in the desert, and John 4:10 talks about the living water which Jesus gives. This quenches your thirst permanently and becomes a spring that wells up to eternal life. John 7:39 interprets this as the Spirit, which he had not yet given because he had not yet been glorified.
Thus we find the miracle of the streams in the desert in Acts 2 where a violent wind comes from heaven, fills the whole house, and tongues of fire separate and rest on the disciples. Then they start to speak in other languages, and this is witnessed by a crowd of God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. So this seems to be a literal fulfillment of Isaiah 35, in the sense that although the water is a metaphor for something else, that something is physically demonstrable.
Does that answer your question?

[Sassy]

In the year of our Lord all women would be virgin till married.
What is interesting is the nativity story deals with this, in that Joseph was
told that Mary still a virgin.

For Jesus to be a second Adam he had to be born by the will and power of God as Adam was.
To be born without sin, he had to be born of a virgin by the power of God.
Luke 1:35

Like Adam...God was the Father of Jesus. They were both created by the same Father.

[jeremyp]

Well the fact is that you are asking good questions. You wanted to know where in the NT is the miracle of streams in the desert,

No. I want to know where the fulfilment of the prophecy of water in the desert is.

and John 4:10 talks about the living water which Jesus gives. This quenches your thirst permanently and becomes a spring that wells up to eternal life.

That's just a metaphor. The writer of John could easily have made that up to provide some smidgen of legitimacy to the prophecy claim.

[jeremyp]

In the year of our Lord all women would be virgin till married.
What is interesting is the nativity story deals with this, in that Joseph was
told that Mary still a virgin.

For Jesus to be a second Adam he had to be born by the will and power of God as Adam was.
To be born without sin, he had to be born of a virgin by the power of God.
Luke 1:35

Like Adam...God was the Father of Jesus. They were both created by the same Father.

That isn't the point of this thread. Nor is it incontrovertible Christian theology. Mark knew nothing about all this. He portrays the holy spirit as having come upon Jesus when he was baptised.

[Sassy]

That isn't the point of this thread. Nor is it incontrovertible Christian theology. Mark knew nothing about all this. He portrays the holy spirit as having come upon Jesus when he was baptised.

Hello JP.

As an intelligent person can you really separate the works of the Holy Spirit and account it to each individual he touches rather than to him and the works and powers by which he does things?
Jesus, warns that blasphemy against God and himself can be forgiven but not against the Holy Spirit. Given that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

We as believers or as people who question to learn cannot isolate the power of the Holy Spirit to the individual he teaches he is the power of God and he has been the Sword the power by which Gods word comes to man. We see that the Spirit can reveal things to individuals even before his power has come upon them. Look at Peter before the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus asks Peter, who he is.  He tells him who he is and Jesus says who revealed this to him,  We cannot limit Gods Power or the Holy Spirit to mans understanding.  We have to learn about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit ,both individually and as God in three persons.

So Jesus is anointed at baptism but has been a Holy thing since his conception. Holy means set aside for God but also coming from God as Jesus was.

So really there is many ways the bible teaches about the gifts of the Spirit and there is different ways he can guide and lead people through his powers and abilities.
Hope it clarifies what I took everyone to know.

Sassy

[Spud]

No. I want to know where the fulfilment of the prophecy of water in the desert is.

As I said: it's the Holy Spirit, who works through the teaching and miracles of Jesus and his disciples. This leads to "Then the (spiritual) eyes of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped. 6Then the lame will leap like a deer and the mute tongue will shout for joy."

[jeremyp]

As I said: it's the Holy Spirit, who works through the teaching and miracles of Jesus and his disciples. This leads to "Then the (spiritual) eyes of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped. 6Then the lame will leap like a deer and the mute tongue will shout for joy."

But it's nothing to do with water and deserts. You're making things up.

[Spud]

In the year of our Lord all women would be virgin till married.
What is interesting is the nativity story deals with this, in that Joseph was
told that Mary still a virgin.

For Jesus to be a second Adam he had to be born by the will and power of God as Adam was.
To be born without sin, he had to be born of a virgin by the power of God.
Luke 1:35

Like Adam...God was the Father of Jesus. They were both created by the same Father.

Thank you Sassy for confirming what I said in the OP. 'Almah' is correctly translated 'virgin'. Isaiah 54 shows that it means a young woman who has not yet married or had children, and therefore in Isaiah's mind the almah is a virgin. The question is, does  Isaiah 7:14 imply that she will still be a virgin at the time she becomes pregnant? Could he have meant a virgin who would shortly become pregnant?

[Maeght]

Thank you Sassy for confirming what I said in the OP. 'Almah' is correctly translated 'virgin'. Isaiah 54 shows that it means a young woman who has not yet married or had children, and therefore in Isaiah's mind the almah is a virgin. The question is, does  Isaiah 7:14 imply that she will still be a virgin at the time she becomes pregnant? Could he have meant a virgin who would shortly become pregnant?

Sassy agreed, not confirmed as they aren't an authority.

[Spud]

Sassy agreed, not confirmed as they aren't an authority.

In your opinion, does the Hebrew say that the woman is pregnant or that she will become pregnant?

[Maeght]

In your opinion, does the Hebrew say that the woman is pregnant or that she will become pregnant?

My opinion matters not. I'm not a scholar on the subject. What I have done on this thread is to point out alternative interpretations from scholars and to question your certainty about it and the conclusions out and others reach based on this certainty.

[jeremyp]

Thank you Sassy for confirming what I said in the OP. 'Almah' is correctly translated 'virgin'.

No. That is flat out wrong. Stop lying.

[Spud]

No. That is flat out wrong. Stop lying.

I explained how I reached that conclusion, so you need to refute rather than accuse of lying.

[Spud]

Sassy agreed, not confirmed as they aren't an authority.

Who do you mean by 'they' please?

[Nearly Sane]

Who do you mean by 'they' please?

He means Sassy isn't any authority

[jeremyp]

I explained how I reached that conclusion, so you need to refute rather than accuse of lying.

And it has been explained to you that your reasoning is wrong. You are just trying to mould the facts to fit the outcome you want.

These are the fact:

Isaiah used the word Almah which means "young woman". When he specifically wants to refer to a virgin he uses the word Bethulah.

It's not a prophecy about a the young woman and her child. They are only used to give a time frame.

It's not a prophecy about the Messiah, it is a prophecy about Ahaz.

Even if all the above were not true, Matthew had access to the book of Isaiah and could easily have manufactured the virgin birth story based on it.

[Maeght]

Who do you mean by 'they' please?

Sassy.

[ekim]

Isaiah used the word Almah which means "young woman". When he specifically wants to refer to a virgin he uses the word Bethulah.

... and I believe Olme (Almah) is often translated as 'damsel' meaning 'unmarried woman'.

[Spud]

... and I believe Olme (Almah) is often translated as 'damsel' meaning 'unmarried woman'.

All the instances in the Old Testament imply unmarried and youth. Since, as Sassy pointed out, all unmarried women would be virgins at that time, the word is correctly translated as virgin.

[Maeght]

All the instances in the Old Testament imply unmarried and youth. Since, as Sassy pointed out, all unmarried women would be virgins at that time, the word is correctly translated as virgin.

No, if it means unmarried and youth then it means unmarried and youth. That the unmarried youth was a virgin is an assumption.