Author Topic: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...  (Read 10643 times)

Steve H

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God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« on: January 22, 2025, 11:06:25 AM »
...but humans have a religious capacity and need, so let's practice religion for its own sake and not worry about its objective truth.
Discuss.
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Steve H

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2025, 11:08:19 AM »
Please can we keep this thread a sarcasm= and leprechaun-free zone.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2025, 11:37:12 AM »
...but humans have a religious capacity and need, so let's practice religion for its own sake and not worry about its objective truth.
Discuss.
certainly would say religion doesn’t have to be failed science.
What do you mean Steve when you say capacity and need?

Outrider

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2025, 12:42:06 PM »
...but humans have a religious capacity and need, so let's practice religion for its own sake and not worry about its objective truth. Discuss.

I can see the notion that humanity has a religious capacity, obviously, I could even go so far as to see the possibility of a tendency towards religious thinking, but I don't see any justification for the suggestion that we have a 'need'.

As such, whether we should or should not recommend religion is dependent upon its outcomes - there have been historical periods when it's been beneficial in that situation, but certainly in the modern era I don't see anything it offers that we can't get elsewhere without the associated baggage.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2025, 02:00:51 PM »
SteveH,

Quote
...but humans have a religious capacity and need, so let's practice religion for its own sake and not worry about its objective truth.
Discuss.

People have a religious capacity certainly, but the “need” part is too narrowly defined by “religious” I think. People have a “need” or at least a strong tendency toward stories that seem to be explanatory or useful regardless of whether or not the objects of those stories really exist – “better a conspiracy theory than no theory at all” as someone once said – and so, say, Aesop’s fables are still useful even though there never was a hare and a tortoise in a race.   

The problems tend to come though when the religious treat the objects of their various stories as if they are real, and so insist that their various truths, rules and strictures must apply to the rest of us too.

How did I do re not mentioning leprechau… oh, darn it!   
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Sriram

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2025, 02:09:11 PM »
...but humans have a religious capacity and need, so let's practice religion for its own sake and not worry about its objective truth.
Discuss.


Religions are obviously of cultural origin and differ region to region. But all religions attempt to satisfy a spiritual need in humans. They are just different paths to the same goal......just as different cuisines across the world attempt to satisfy the same need of hunger.

What this spiritual need is, is a different discussion.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2025, 02:28:50 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
Religions are obviously of cultural origin and differ region to region. But all religions attempt to satisfy a spiritual need in humans. They are just different paths to the same goal......just as different cuisines across the world attempt to satisfy the same need of hunger.

What this spiritual need is, is a different discussion.

"Spiritual" is overreaching. "Explanatory" need is sufficient. If you want to argue for "spiritual" you need first to define it and then to demonstrate it.   
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2025, 03:25:08 PM »
Sriram,

"Spiritual" is overreaching. "Explanatory" need is sufficient. If you want to argue for "spiritual" you need first to define it and then to demonstrate it.
I'd agree with that.

I think religions typically meet a variety of needs, specifically:

Societal - giving individuals a feel that they belong to something (and often that those 'others' over there aren't part of your clan). So keeps your clan together and prevents your people wandering off to the next-door clan (see below).

Cultural (links to above) - customs and practices which embed a cultural memory - very valuable in early times when this would be the prime means of generation to generation knowledge dissemination.

Control - religions have been used throughout history as a means to control the population - effectively 'do this', 'don't do that' - with threat of sanction, either direct or claimed indirect after death. Also (linked to Societal above) - that you are either part of us (the religion) or you aren't and if you aren't you may be ostracised.

Inquisitiveness - a means to explain things in nature which were (or are) unknown in terms of mechanism etc. Leads to the god of the gaps concept.

Power and corruption - allows certain elites to maintain a position of dominance over the general populace - clergy who must be respected, monarchs annointed by god etc. Links to the expectation that people need to donate to the religion (which even if claimed as helping the poor is an incredibly inefficient way of doing it as resource for the poor is all that is left after the buildings are built and maintained, the gold and treasures are procured, the clergy are paid etc etc).

Outrider

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2025, 03:32:36 PM »
Religions are obviously of cultural origin and differ region to region. But all religions attempt to satisfy a spiritual need in humans.

Do they? Or is 'spiritual' just a mystic term invented to justify continuing with (particular?) religious practices as time has made it apparent that they are increasingly not helpful or based on anything?

Quote
They are just different paths to the same goal......just as different cuisines across the world attempt to satisfy the same need of hunger.

They do appear to satisfy similar cultural functions - whether that's a necessary function, and whether religion is the best and/or only option needs investigating.

Quote
What this spiritual need is, is a different discussion.

I think you'd need to establish that 'spiritual' meant anything, first, and then demonstrate that there is a 'need' related to it at all, before we bothered looking at what such a need might be.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2025, 03:56:25 PM »
Sriram,

"Spiritual" is overreaching. "Explanatory" need is sufficient. If you want to argue for "spiritual" you need first to define it and then to demonstrate it.
If there is an explanatory need then you yourself must be prone to it and so by your own argument be also prone to unreal explanations.
If not, how is it you are immune?
If you are however not immune to your own theory, then scientism seems to describe your apparent preferred 'explanatory story.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2025, 04:08:14 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
If there is an explanatory need then you yourself must be prone to it and so by your own argument be also prone to unreal explanations.
If not, how is it you are immune?
If you are however not immune to your own theory, then scientism seems to describe your apparent preferred 'explanatory story.

Did any of that make sense in your head when you typed it?

I’m only “immune” to it to the extent that the explanations I accept are supported by reasoning I cannot falsify, whereas those I do not accept are not. It’s a simple enough concept to grasp I’d have thought, even for the hard of thinking.   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2025, 04:17:15 PM »
Vlad,

Did any of that make sense in your head when you typed it?

I’m only “immune” to it to the extent that the explanations I accept are supported by reasoning I cannot falsify, whereas those I do not accept are not. It’s a simple enough concept to grasp I’d have thought, even for the hard of thinking.   
Gibberish.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2025, 04:18:57 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Gibberish.

Which words are confusing you?
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Gordon

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2025, 04:23:53 PM »
...but humans have a religious capacity and need, so let's practice religion for its own sake and not worry about its objective truth.
Discuss.

Certainly some do but, since religion has been fairly ubiquitous across time and cultures, it may be the case religion has been inculcated to the extent that for some, if not many, it is now a given that they feel they have a capacity/need for religion: it's their default. However, in recent times, in some places, this ubiquity is perhaps fading.

I have no capacity or need for religion personally, and since it lacks any verifiable objective truth I can't see that it's worth bothering with.

 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2025, 04:35:26 PM »
Vlad,

Which words are confusing you?
No words. It's just your incredible claim that you are immune from scientism after spending the best part of two decades demonstrating it.

I think what you mean is science is enough to satisfy and that there is no need for anything else.You stand as perfect in the truth that science is all and what it is that is lacking in others is science and anything else is an unreal story.

Religiously speaking you are sufficiently enlighten save perhaps for more scientific facts.

There is of course a word for all this. Scientism.

Of course given your keenness to suspend the principal of sufficient reason as and when it suits it kind of renders the piety of your appeal to reason rather hollow.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 04:46:43 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2025, 04:37:29 PM »
Certainly some do but, since religion has been fairly ubiquitous across time and cultures, it may be the case religion has been inculcated to the extent that for some, if not many, it is now a given that they feel they have a capacity/need for religion: it's their default. However, in recent times, in some places, this ubiquity is perhaps fading.

I have no capacity or need for religion personally, and since it lacks any verifiable objective truth I can't see that it's worth bothering with.
says the guy who has been on a religiousethics forum for a couple of decades?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2025, 04:42:46 PM »
I'd agree with that.

I think religions typically meet a variety of needs, specifically:

Societal - giving individuals a feel that they belong to something (and often that those 'others' over there aren't part of your clan). So keeps your clan together and prevents your people wandering off to the next-door clan (see below).

Cultural (links to above) - customs and practices which embed a cultural memory - very valuable in early times when this would be the prime means of generation to generation knowledge dissemination.

Control - religions have been used throughout history as a means to control the population - effectively 'do this', 'don't do that' - with threat of sanction, either direct or claimed indirect after death. Also (linked to Societal above) - that you are either part of us (the religion) or you aren't and if you aren't you may be ostracised.

Inquisitiveness - a means to explain things in nature which were (or are) unknown in terms of mechanism etc. Leads to the god of the gaps concept.

Power and corruption - allows certain elites to maintain a position of dominance over the general populace - clergy who must be respected, monarchs annointed by god etc. Links to the expectation that people need to donate to the religion (which even if claimed as helping the poor is an incredibly inefficient way of doing it as resource for the poor is all that is left after the buildings are built and maintained, the gold and treasures are procured, the clergy are paid etc etc).
Nothing here that couldn't apply to humanism or a materialism.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2025, 05:10:24 PM »
Do they? Or is 'spiritual' just a mystic term invented to justify continuing with (particular?) religious practices as time has made it apparent that they are increasingly not helpful or based on anything?
What do you mean by mystic and just mystic. Might it  be an idea to have the dictionary definition of spiritual?

Nearly Sane

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2025, 05:33:54 PM »
...but humans have a religious capacity and need, so let's practice religion for its own sake and not worry about its objective truth.
Discuss.
Which one?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2025, 05:51:38 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
No words. It's just your incredible claim that you are immune from scientism after spending the best part of two decades demonstrating it.

First, what I actually said was that I’m only “immune” to the extent that I cannot falsify the reasoning for the things I do believe.

Second, your charge of scientism is pretty much the mother of all the straw men you attempt (admittedly from an extremely crowded field) given that I’ve never said anything that would suggest that I subscribe to it, and moreover given that I’ve endlessly rebutted the charge only for you to run away each time I’ve done it.

Are you still hanging around playgrounds in your spare time by the way? After all, if you insist on making up shit about me I see no reason for it not to be a two-way street.     

Quote
I think what you mean is science is enough to satisfy and that there is no need for anything else.

Then – as so often – you think wrongly. What I actually mean is what I actually say - namely that science (and the reasoning that supports it) is the only verifiable means I know of test truth claims about the nature of the universe. If ever you manage to find another method to do that to test the various religious claims you make, by all means tell us what it is.   

Quote
You stand as perfect in the truth that science is all and what it is that is lacking in others is science and anything else is an unreal story.

More lying isn’t helping you here. I have no idea whether or not your religious “stories” are true but – and here’s the point – nor have you. Your reliance on fallacious reasoning and unqualified assertions tells me that I have no reason to accept them, but if ever you manage to produce something more robust than that for justification I’ll examine your reasoning on its merits. I won’t be holding my breath though.   

Quote
Religiously speaking you are sufficiently enlighten save perhaps for more scientific facts.

You’ve collapsed into incoherence again. Is there a coherent sentence in there somewhere trying to escape your mangled prose? 

Quote
There is of course a word for all this. Scientism.

Find yourself someone who actually argues for it then if you can and have it out with him. You seem to have forgotten by the way that the last time you tried to make your case by citing Wiki re scientism it blew up in your face because it didn’t mean what you thought it meant at all.   

Quote
Of course given your keenness to suspend the principal of sufficient reason as and when it suits it kind of renders the piety of your appeal to reason rather hollow.

I don’t “suspend” it, I explain to you why it’s bollocks – albeit that the explanation always fall on deaf ears.

By all mean though if you fancy swapping your persistent lying , straw men, false reasoning and unsupported assertions for actual sound arguments then – finally – try sharing them here.

Good luck with it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 05:59:23 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2025, 06:00:31 PM »
Which one?
Which one immediately appeals and why. Which one repels and why.
It seems to me that spirituality refers to that which is greater than us, that which is our inner dimension and it’s development or ecstasy, that feeling of stepping outside of ourself
These are the places to start I would have thought.

Nearly Sane

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2025, 07:17:09 PM »
Which one immediately appeals and why. Which one repels and why.
It seems to me that spirituality refers to that which is greater than us, that which is our inner dimension and it’s development or ecstasy, that feeling of stepping outside of ourself
These are the places to start I would have thought.
I think you're confused, my question was in reply to Steve's OP and was about which religion. Nothing to do with spirituality.

Outrider

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2025, 06:58:50 AM »
What do you mean by mystic and just mystic. Might it  be an idea to have the dictionary definition of spiritual?

This is the core of that issue - 'spiritual' is given credence as a concept, but is reliant entirely on other unsubstantiable concepts for any sort of meaning. It doesn't appear to exist in any demonstrable way - it's 'pertaining to the human spirit or soul', but souls aren't demonstrably a thing, let alone having any qualities or properties that we can derive anything from. Spiritual, therefore, becomes meaningless in that it can be interpreted pretty much however someone chooses to look at it. It's inherently meaningless, and just becomes a justification for people to waft around to justify their other inclinations - good or bad.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2025, 08:04:39 AM »
This is the core of that issue - 'spiritual' is given credence as a concept, but is reliant entirely on other unsubstantiable concepts for any sort of meaning. It doesn't appear to exist in any demonstrable way - it's 'pertaining to the human spirit or soul', but souls aren't demonstrably a thing, let alone having any qualities or properties that we can derive anything from. Spiritual, therefore, becomes meaningless in that it can be interpreted pretty much however someone chooses to look at it. It's inherently meaningless, and just becomes a justification for people to waft around to justify their other inclinations - good or bad.

O.
I'm not sure what inherently meaningless means? I get that 'spiritual' is a bit all things to all people but it's surely a genuine attempt to convey something about the human experience, and as such I'm not sure that it can inherently lack meaning.

jeremyp

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Re: God and the supernatural have no objective existence...
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2025, 08:54:52 AM »
God and the supernatural have no objective existence

The trouble with this statement is that the "supernatural" is an incoherent class of phenomena. As soon as a supernatural phenomenon can be demonstrated to exist to the satisfaction of the sceptics, it stops being part of the supernatural and starts being part of the natural.
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