Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️

[Gonnagle]

Dear fellow Posters,

Well here we are again happy as can be all good friends and jolly good company

Our story starts in a faraway galaxy, a beautiful place, some say the very centre of the known universe, picture the scene, three very wise but aged gentlemen sitting in a den of ill repute which sells ( quite legally ) substances of mind altering qualities. Now one of these gentlemen mentions a quote from a book he had read regarding atheism ( need to mention that this particular gentleman was rather handsome in a rugged weather beaten sort of way ) anyway this book was written by a atheist, sorry Cheerful atheist ( the writers description not mine ) and below is the quote from the said book.

“No it's not!" said Constable Visit. "Atheism is a denial of a god."

"Therefore It Is A Religious Position," said Dorfl. "Indeed, A True Atheist Thinks Of The Gods Constantly, Albeit In Terms of Denial. Therefore, Atheism Is A Form Of Belief. If The Atheist Truly Did Not Believe, He Or She Would Not Bother To Deny.”
― Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay

So my simple question which I posed in the den of ill repute is, is Atheism a form of belief

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

is Atheism a form of belief

Gonnagle.

Yes, in the same way as I am an avid practitioner of the sport "not playing golf".

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Is Atheism a religious position?

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Jeremyp,

Is Atheism a religious position?

Gonnagle.

I don't think theism is in itself a religious position. It's a position on one belief. Religion  is a wider more complex phenomenon

[Gonnagle]

Dear almost but not entirely

belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
"there are many different forms of theism"

Stop changing the subject, is Atheism a form of belief and is Atheism a religious position.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

You asked if atheism is a religious position. If theism isn't, and I don't think it is, how can atheism be a religious position?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Nearly ( aye right!)

Theism as explained in my previous post is a religious position, stop messing with my head you messer of heads ( it's a word ).

Now you have me thinking, is there something missing in a Atheists life, try religion it will keep you occupied for hours, but then! ah ha! you have religion, it is called Atheism, it is your belief and countless others, I did try it once but it was so dead, so final, so meaningless

Anyway onward and upwards, this forum is great, lots of Atheists and Theists to have fun with

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Nearly ( aye right!)

Theism as explained in my previous post is a religious position, stop messing with my head you messer of heads ( it's a word ).

Now you have me thinking, is there something missing in a Atheists life, try religion it will keep you occupied for hours, but then! ah ha! you have religion, it is called Atheism, it is your belief and countless others, I did try it once but it was so dead, so final, so meaningless

Anyway onward and upwards, this forum is great, lots of Atheists and Theists to have fun with

Gonnagle.

You provides a definition of theism that I don't disagree with but that definition doesn't say it is a religious position. There are many theists who don't have a religion, and many atheists who do. Neither atheism nor theism is a necessary or sufficient condition  of being religious.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

I will play but only if you play fair a religious position not a specific religion but a religious position, like Atheism.

[Stranger]

So my simple question which I posed in the den of ill repute is, is Atheism a form of belief

Despite what Mr Pratchett may have written in a novel, no, at least not necessarily.

"the fact of not believing in any god or gods, or the belief that no god or gods exist" -- atheism.

So, although an atheist might deny the existence of any god or gods, they may simply be unpersuaded that any god or gods exist. In fact, as many god claims are unfalsifiable, this is the more rational position to take.

See: Agnostic atheism.

I can't show that there is definitely no god (or gods) but I see zero reason to take the idea at all seriously.

Welcome back. 

[Enki]

Gonners,

Welcome back. I hope you are in good health.


You seem to be asking two different questions

1) Is atheism a form of belief

2) Is atheism a religious position


Let's take the first position. You seem to be talking about those atheists who say there is no such thing as a god as the only reference you give is through Terry Pratchett(atheism is a denial of a god). However there are very many atheists who don't deny that a god may exist, but have no actual belief in the fact of one(or more) existing. I count myself as one of that number most prominently because of the lack of any objective evidence. I prefer to call that a position of lack of belief. If you count that as a belief, that's up to you, but it is a belief without any content.

Your second position is that of religion. According to the Cambridge Dictionary, religion is "the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship". Therefore, as an atheist, I would suggest that it is not my position at all. Indeed, I find that the worship of any god holds no significance in my life.

[jeremyp]

Dear Jeremyp,

Is Atheism a religious position?

Gonnagle.

If you mean "is it a position that is religious" then the answer is no.

If you mean "is it a position on religion", the answer is maybe. My position on religion is that all religions are made up. You could guess that from the fact that I am an atheist, but, for some people, their position on religion might not correlate with their position on the existence of God. For example, some Buddhists are atheists. There may also be theists who think religions are all not true.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Sane,

I will play but only if you play fair a religious position not a specific religion but a religious position, like Atheism.

I don't really see that calling it that helps. I think it ends up reducing religion to a tautology. Religion seems to me to need more than a belief or a lack of belief in a god. Indeed the problem is compounded by the question of what dies 'god' mean?

[Outrider]

Dear fellow Posters,

Well here we are again happy as can be all good friends and jolly good company

Our story starts in a faraway galaxy, a beautiful place, some say the very centre of the known universe, picture the scene, three very wise but aged gentlemen sitting in a den of ill repute which sells ( quite legally ) substances of mind altering qualities. Now one of these gentlemen mentions a quote from a book he had read regarding atheism ( need to mention that this particular gentleman was rather handsome in a rugged weather beaten sort of way ) anyway this book was written by a atheist, sorry Cheerful atheist ( the writers description not mine ) and below is the quote from the said book.

“No it's not!" said Constable Visit. "Atheism is a denial of a god."

"Therefore It Is A Religious Position," said Dorfl. "Indeed, A True Atheist Thinks Of The Gods Constantly, Albeit In Terms of Denial. Therefore, Atheism Is A Form Of Belief. If The Atheist Truly Did Not Believe, He Or She Would Not Bother To Deny.”
― Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay

So my simple question which I posed in the den of ill repute is, is Atheism a form of belief

Gonnagle.

It's a position on belief, functionally on a day-to-day basis it's indistinguishable from a belief, but technically (the best kind of correct) it's not intrinsically a belief.

The only time the differentiation becomes in any way important is when it comes to philosophical discussions - atheists who believe there is no god open themselves up to the challenge of substantiating that belief (even if that's still a shift in the burden of proof), whereas atheists who just don't believe in a god don't have a case to answer, they are answering a case that they fell hasn't been made.

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

You seem to be asking two different questions

1) Is atheism a form of belief

2) Is atheism a religious position

Echoing others - good to see you back Gonners

To address Enki's points which seem to distil Gonner's post.

1. Typically atheism is a lack of belief, which is not the same as a belief. Not believing that god exists (a lack of belief) is subtly different to believing that god doesn't exist (which would potentially be a belief). I think most of us atheists here are firmly in the lack of belief category, in which case, no, atheism (as we see it) is not a belief.

2. Nope, definitely not. For something to be a religion there need to be some kind of customs, practice, ritual around the belief, which is aimed at cementing that belief. Again, looking at the atheists here, I simply do not see how that applies. While we might not believe in god we don't (or certainly I don't) engage in any kind of customs, practice, ritual to cement our lack of believe. And even where there may be customs, practice, rituals associated with an activity, that doesn't make it a religion. Plenty of people have customs, practice, ritual around going to the football, or playing golf etc etc, but they aren't considered religions (except in a colloquial sense). For something to be a religion not only must there be customs, practice, rituals but also this needs to be focussed on some form of deity or supernatural concept.

[Outrider]

Is Atheism a religious position?

It could be, but it doesn't need to be. You could get - it seems almost certain that there have been - people who advocate for particular religious tenets for any number of reasons without believing the theology behind it.

Typically, along with the atheism, you'll get a view on different religions and religious tenets - as with believers, I guess - that make it less likely they'll openly and formally accept a given religion, but it's not impossible.

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Gentlemen,  ( I think you are all of the male variety )

Thank you all for your replies and your welcome backs, and I am, and yes I have to say although it hurts and I can't quite believe it, Sir Terry is wrong, no no and trice no Atheism is a position on religion, not a religious position, my God that was sore

Bloody Atheists you can't even agree amongst yourselves

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

Bloody Atheists you can't even agree amongst yourselves

The only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in God. Why would we necessarily agree about anything else?

[ProfessorDavey]

Atheism is a position on religion, not a religious position ...

Nope atheism is a position on god (specifically a lack of belief in god or gods), not a position on religion, let alone a religious position.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Gentlemen,  ( I think you are all of the male variety )

Thank you all for your replies and your welcome backs, and I am, and yes I have to say although it hurts and I can't quite believe it, Sir Terry is wrong, no no and trice no Atheism is a position on religion, not a religious position, my God that was sore

Bloody Atheists you can't even agree amongst yourselves

Gonnagle.

Mr Gonnagle, Sir.
The evolutionary biologist and atheist David Sloan Wilson described the “New Atheism” as a stealth religion, seeing its own position as truthful, spreading that message in the hope of conversions or revival and identifying an evil opposition. I would add discipleship, apostles and scripture to that list of religious characteristics.

He lays it out in Huffpost here

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/atheism-as-a-stealth-reli_b_76901

[ProfessorDavey]

Mr Gonnagle, Sir.
The evolutionary biologist and atheist David Sloan Wilson described the “New Atheism” as a stealth religion, seeing its own position as truthful, spreading that message in the hope of conversions or revival and identifying an evil opposition. I would add discipleship, apostles and scripture to that list of religious characteristics.

He lays it out in Huffpost here

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/atheism-as-a-stealth-reli_b_76901

But gonnagle doesn't mention 'New Atheism' (whatever that may be). Nope he is talking about atheism, which is a lack of belief in god or gods - nothing more, nothing less. So it represents a position on god or gods, it is not even a position on religion (as people can be both atheist and religious) and certainly not a religion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But gonnagle doesn't mention 'New Atheism' (whatever that may be). Nope he is talking about atheism, which is a lack of belief in god or gods - nothing more, nothing less. So it represents a position on god or gods, it is not even a position on religion (as people can be both atheist and religious) and certainly not a religion.

I see you as talking about atheism as merely the lack of belief in God or gods.
If you really believed that was the end of it you would have said it , stopped and left years ago...

Yet here you still are.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But gonnagle doesn't mention 'New Atheism' (whatever that may be).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

[ProfessorDavey]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

And why is this relevant to a discussion about atheism (specifically a lack of belief in god or gods) rather than New Atheism which seems to be a highly selective term used to denote the work of a very tiny number of atheists, who cannot claim to somehow speak for, nor be representative of the millions of atheists just in the UK alone.

Indeed, unlike religion which typically has hierarchical structures involving 'leaders' the notion that atheists are led by some nominal leader is non-sensical as atheism is a lack of belief. Are people who don't play golf somehow beholden to the leadership of some high profile person who also doesn't play golf. Complete non-sense.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And why is this relevant to a discussion about atheism (specifically a lack of belief in god or gods) rather than New Atheism which seems to be a highly selective term used to denote the work of a very tiny number of atheists, who cannot claim to somehow speak for, nor be representative of the millions of atheists just in the UK alone.

Indeed, unlike religion which typically has hierarchical structures involving 'leaders' the notion that atheists are led by some nominal leader is non-sensical as atheism is a lack of belief. Are people who don't play golf somehow beholden to the leadership of some high profile person who also doesn't play golf. Complete non-sense.

Are you trying to dissociate Atheism from New Atheism?
Here is a more general criticism of atheism, and for those of a nervous disposition, it does question the very definition “Atheism is merely the lack of belief in God or gods.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_atheism