Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️

[Dicky Underpants]

Sorry, I think I suffer from that strange disease Einsteinitis, there is no cure, I am doomed❤️

Dear Gonners
A belated welcome.
Your strange disease could be cured by considering Leonardo da Vinci, even though his science has largely been superseded.
However, he is quite good for a quote or two:

"Learning never exhausts the mind"
"Experience never errs; it is only your judgments that err by promising themselves effects such as are not caused by your experiments"

[Dicky Underpants]

OK I’ll try and break in down. The bible suggests that the way to find God is to ‘seek’ him.
That suggests setting out to meet God himself rather just have God down as another fact that you know.

The Bible also suggests (St Paul) that God's elect are predestined. The Parable of the Lost Sheep suggests God seeks us.
Not forgetting Paul quoting Isaiah:
"And Isaiah is very bold, and says
'I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me'"
Romans 10:20

[Nearly Sane]

The Bible also suggests (St Paul) that God's elect are predestined. The Parable of the Lost Sheep suggests God seeks us.
Not forgetting Paul quoting Isaiah:
"And Isaiah is very bold, and says
'I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me'"
Romans 10:20

Predestination has the benefits of making more logical sense than its alternatives on Christian theologies. Though it is still riddled with problems.

[Dicky Underpants]

Predestination has the benefits of making more logical sense than its alternatives on Christian theologies. Though it is still riddled with problems.

Too right, mate!

[Outrider]

OK I’ll try and break in down. The bible suggests that the way to find God is to ‘seek’ him.

The Bible also suggests that slavery is acceptable, that misogyny should be the norm, that homophobia is divinely mandated and that there are unholy haircuts - but I'm supposed to take that one little nugget as somehow different?

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear what! eh!

“The function of muscle is to pull and not to push, except in the case of the genitals and the tongue.”

Dicky Underpants, he knew, he bloody well knew I would find this quote

The man is trying to corrupt my young virgin Christian mind😀

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And why should we take an old book, riddled with contradictions and morally obnoxious nonsense, at all seriously?

Actually, it’s a collection of books from different points of view, You are of course committing the fallacy of modernity. As for moral obnoxiousness, not nearly as obnoxious as the Greek and Roman morality. Have you, by the way, converted to an absolute morality and moral realism? If not, what right have you got to go on about moral obnoxiousness.

Meet which God? Set out, how? To be objective, you wouldn't start with the assumption that there is a God to find. Speculating that there is a God is a blind guess, but one that actually wants to interact with humans, is even more of a leap in the dark.

Which God? Well not knowing the existence of the gods plural, I was more keen to meet the ultimate God. Penultimate Gods don’t seem to grab me even though I’m agnostic about them.
How would you go about seeking God? Don’t you think yourself that you are showing the hallmarks of running in the other direction? On the other hand I don’t know you and you do spend a lot of time on this, a forum about religion. Maybe you aren’t here just for the Atheism. Maybe you are already searching for something. Only you know that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The Bible also suggests that slavery is acceptable, that misogyny should be the norm, that homophobia is divinely mandated and that there are unholy haircuts - but I'm supposed to take that one little nugget as somehow different?

O.

Though I’ve never had any interest or religious compulsion to keep slaves, becoming a Christian did I believe help sort out my misogyny. Becoming celebrity atheists did not apparently save Krauss or Dawkins from accusations of misogyny.

[Aruntraveller]

Though I’ve never had any interest or religious compulsion to keep slaves, becoming a Christian did I believe help sort out my misogyny. Becoming celebrity atheists did not apparently save Krauss or Dawkins from accusations of misogyny.

That's a pretty useless point given that Trump is a Christian.

I would have thought that grabbing pussy qualifies as misogyny.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's a pretty useless point given that Trump is a Christian.

Interesting. I have seen more compelling arguments that he is, in fact the antichrist and that he has never repented.

I would have thought that grabbing pussy qualifies as misogyny.

Can’t argue with that. Not sure Christ or the apostles preached it though.

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting. I have seen more compelling arguments that he is, in fact the antichrist and that he has never repented.Can’t argue with that. Not sure Christ or the apostles preached it though.

What compelling arguments have you seen that Trump is 'in fact the antichrist'?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What compelling arguments have you seen that Trump is 'in fact the antichrist'?

I did say more convincing evidence....more convincing than Arunttravellers claim he is a christian.

Basically there is Trump's historic potential for havoc and his unprecedented influence on people.

Only God and Trump know if he is really a Christian or not.

[Aruntraveller]

I did say more convincing evidence....more convincing than Arunttravellers claim he is a christian.

Basically there is Trump's historic potential for havoc and his unprecedented influence on people.

Only God and Trump know if he is really a Christian or not.

I didn't claim he was a Christian. Trump has claimed that.

Now you tell me how I discern a true Christian, given that there are so many variations? I mean surely people don't lie about being Christian, do they?

I can't ask Trump and God's not returning my call. So please enlighten me.

I'm glad Christianity cured you of misogyny. I never needed that. I had my mother who did that job.

[Nearly Sane]

I did say more convincing evidence....more convincing than Arunttravellers claim he is a christian.

Basically there is Trump's historic potential for havoc and his unprecedented influence on people.

Only God and Trump know if he is really a Christian or not.

You said compelling arguments

[Gordon]

Interesting. I have seen more compelling arguments that he is, in fact the antichrist and that he has never repented.Can’t argue with that. Not sure Christ or the apostles preached it though.

The bizarre thing here is that it seems you take this 'antichrist' nonsense seriously - perhaps you've been reading some of those turgid old Denis Wheatley occult novels. Don't!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Arun,

God's not returning my call.

Yeah that one is a real bitch, probably your WIFI connection, but then you are probably like me I never check the manual or just give it a quick perusal.

Mines is a KJV, but then I am old school.

Oh and other manuals are available.

I think that's what old Vlad is trying to do, set your connection up, awfully nice chap don't you think❤️✝️

Gonnagle.

[splashscuba]

So my simple question which I posed in the den of ill repute is, is Atheism a form of belief

Gonnagle.

So there's an infinite number of things I don't believe in. Gods are just a very small subset. Does this mean I have an infinite number of beliefs and you do too as you only believe in one more thing than me ?

[Aruntraveller]

Dear Arun,

God's not returning my call.

Yeah that one is a real bitch, probably your WIFI connection, but then you are probably like me I never check the manual or just give it a quick perusal.

Mines is a KJV, but then I am old school.

Oh and other manuals are available.

I think that's what old Vlad is trying to do, set your connection up, awfully nice chap don't you think❤️✝️

Gonnagle.

Still not helping with my immediate problem. How do you tell if someone is a Christian. Donald Duck says he is. Should I not believe him?

It would surely be unchristian of me to call him a liar.

Then there is this connection you speak of. Have you read the manual? It is so self-contradictory that it is really hard to follow. You'd have thought clarity would have been uppermost in anybody's mind when trying to convey such important information. But no, it's almost as if it was written by, dare I say it, Donald Trump for all the coherence it contains.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Arun,

Then there is this connection you speak of. Have you read the manual? It is so self-contradictory that it is really hard to follow.

Yep! got you, I really feel your pain, it's a weighty tome, I generally go for the quick set up guide, guy called Mark I quite like his version, then there's that John character, bit in yer face for me, as for the other two, bit wishy washy for me, but a thorough reading ( thorough ) of all four should get you through at least to, your call is important to us, please hold the line❤️✝️.

Time for bed said Zebedee😀

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

Actually, it’s a collection of books from different points of view...

Doesn't change the fact that it's riddled with blatant contradictions.

You are of course committing the fallacy of modernity.

How so? You are trying to get people to take part of this old collection of books seriously in the modern world but don't seem to care that the source is clearly unreliable due to the contradictions. It's already been pointed out that even the idea that we should do the seeking is contradicted in other passages (#201).

As for moral obnoxiousness, not nearly as obnoxious as the Greek and Roman morality. Have you, by the way, converted to an absolute morality and moral realism? If not, what right have you got to go on about moral obnoxiousness.

Same right as everybody else. There is a pretty good consensus that (for example) slavery and genocide are morally wrong, but are approved and even commanded by the God character in the bible.

Which God? Well not knowing the existence of the gods plural, I was more keen to meet the ultimate God. Penultimate Gods don’t seem to grab me even though I’m agnostic about them.

Which version of the 'ultimate God'? There are an awful lot of them.

How would you go about seeking God?

How do you look for something you have no reason to think even exists and that you don't even have a consistent idea of what it is?

Don’t you think yourself that you are showing the hallmarks of running in the other direction?

No. Nobody has given me any reason to take any of the various God-concepts at all seriously.

[Outrider]

Though I’ve never had any interest or religious compulsion to keep slaves, becoming a Christian did I believe help sort out my misogyny. Becoming celebrity atheists did not apparently save Krauss or Dawkins from accusations of misogyny.

So you shouldn't follow those bits of the Bible, you're saying, but we should totally believe it when it says we should risk confirmation bias when we go looking for a god...

O.

[Alan Burns]

Which version of the 'ultimate God'? There are an awful lot of them.

There can only be one ultimate God.  Only one ultimate source of all that exists.

Yes, there have been many man made attempts to find God, but these failed attempts cannot be used to deny the existence of the one ultimate God.

But ultimately we do not need to seek God, because God has made Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I didn't claim he was a Christian. Trump has claimed that.

OK my response still covers his claim, though.

Now you tell me how I discern a true Christian, given that there are so many variations?

Their teaching, will be Christ centred about what Christ has done for them and means to them. Some may not approach you, but if you ask them it will be apparent that Christ is central

, I mean surely people don't lie about being Christian, do they?

If there are votes or money in it then, yes, I'm afraid. In a majority agnostic country or atheist country, there is no financial or political mileage in lying about being a Christian.

I can't ask Trump and God's not returning my call. So please enlighten me.

What makes you sure you would get the truth, he has already stated he doesn't need to repent.

As far as your call to God is concerned, I don't know what that is all about, Arun.
God though is calling us. He's calling us to come to Christ, to come to the cross. He's calling us to come home, He's calling us in, back. He's calling us out, He's calling us to lay down our burdens, to account. The thing is we're reluctant to answer the call, we don't like being called out, we are afraid, too proud, we don't want to follow. The handle of the door is on our side.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you shouldn't follow those bits of the Bible, you're saying, but we should totally believe it when it says we should risk confirmation bias when we go looking for a god...

O.

We should follow Christ first and foremost. The important, primary, “Get this right”, parts of the bible are precisely the bits YOU don’t seem to be interested in.

[Stranger]

There can only be one ultimate God.  Only one ultimate source of all that exists.

Yes, there have been many man made attempts to find God, but these failed attempts cannot be used to deny the existence of the one ultimate God.

What's the matter with the Christians here? You can't all be as thick as this kind of comment (and Vlad's before) imply, can you? Of course, if there is an "ultimate God" (which nobody seems able to provide any good reason to think there is) then there can only be one, but what we actually see is endless different religions, denominations, cults, and sects, all describing it differently.

What we have in practice is multiple descriptions of what it is, what it wants, and what it likes.

But ultimately we do not need to seek God, because God has made Himself known to us by becoming one of us in the form of Jesus Christ.

A joke? So Vlad (and the passage he quoted) is wrong about the need to seek?

All we actually have is a self-contradictory story book description of Jesus (that may have been loosly based on a real person or not). That is hardly a God "making itself known". If that's the best it can do, it's clearly an idiot or has serious communication problems.