Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️

[Maeght]

You are trying to define what the limitations of "outside time" are by looking at them from within the time dependent space of our universe.  Try to imagine this scenario the other way round - from a timeless state it may be possible to be aware of every event which has ever occurred from the big bang to the death of the universe itself.

truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!  John 8:58

Abraham wasn't the Big Bang so how is that quote relevant?

[Alan Burns]

Abraham wasn't the Big Bang so how is that quote relevant?

the phrase "I am" indicates the present tense, signifying that God exists in the present throughout history - "before Abraham was born".

[Gonnagle]

Dear Mr Burns,

Sir, Atheists eh you need to take them everywhere twice, the second time to apologise God truly does move in mysterious ways✝️

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

the phrase "I am" indicates the present tense, signifying that God exists in the present throughout history - "before Abraham was born".

Despite your frequent idiotic, logic-free, fallacy ridden assertions, a mind cannot operate in 'the present'. It requires the passage of time.   

[Aruntraveller]

Dear Mr Burns,

Sir, Atheists eh you need to take them everywhere twice, the second time to apologise God truly does move in mysterious ways✝️

Gonnagle.

Of course, Christians never apologise, they just patronise.

God moves in mysterious ways eh? Yea, try telling that to a child who has cancer. If he exists your God doesn't move in mysterious ways. He/she/it is completely oblivious to obvious suffering. Makes him/she/it a complete bastard in my eyes.

[Maeght]

the phrase "I am" indicates the present tense, signifying that God exists in the present throughout history - "before Abraham was born".

That's an interpretation but still nothing to do with the Big Bang.

[Gordon]

the phrase "I am" indicates the present tense, signifying that God exists in the present throughout history - "before Abraham was born".

Since there is no evidence to confirm that Abraham was a real person then your biblical quote has no value.

[Alan Burns]

.... a mind cannot operate in 'the present'.

So you keep asserting.
An assertion which restricts the mind to be an inevitable consequence of past events.
An assertion which takes away any possibility of the free will we all employ and enjoy in posting this forum.

[Alan Burns]

That's an interpretation but still nothing to do with the Big Bang.

The big bang indicates the beginning of time as we know it, but not the beginning of "that which exists" - the ever present God.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Gordon,

Since there is no evidence to confirm that Abraham was a real person then your biblical quote has no value.

🎶See them tumbling down🎵 but then if I am honest some Christians do remind me of this song, not me of course, I am a baw hair away from perfection❤️

This forum should be more like one of my favourite TV progs, QI, as long as the post is interesting

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

So you keep asserting.

It's not an assertion Alan, it's bleedin' obvious because any chain of thought ends some time after it starts. Any choice, requires a before and an after.

An assertion which restricts the mind to be an inevitable consequence of past events.
An assertion which takes away any possibility of the free will we all employ and enjoy in posting this forum.

It's truly fucking incredible that somebody who's supposed to have a PhD and be a member of Mensa, can post such unadulterated idiocy.

You can't have any will at all—free or otherwise—without time. A choice requires a time before you've made it, where you contemplate the options, a transition to having made a choice, and a time after the choice, to implement it.

This is all totally impossible without time.

[ProfessorDavey]

It was a physicist who pointed it out to me,

And ... why is this relevant. Just because some person (whether a physicist or not) notes a comment purportedly made by a historical figure doesn't mean that they considered that comment to be correct.

You I take are a biologist which I suppose is some sort of scientist.

Yup that's right, my original training was in cell biology, although my research is very multidisciplinary. And yes, biologists are scientists. 

Mind you, he also referred to Dawkins as a “ mechanistic dinosaur.

Your obsession with Dawkins borders on the pathological - it really is very odd.

Apparently, even these people back then were particularly gifted in maths and philosophy.

True, there have always been people who are polymaths. But I don't really see the relevance. I'm actually not commenting on whether or not St Augustine was considered to be a great mind in his time. He may well have been incredibly impressive as a thinker. But that is totally irrelevant as his thinking would necessarily be limited by the level of knowledge at the time. Someone whose background knowledge tells them that the sun goes around the earth and that the universe is perhaps a few thousand years old has nothing to tell us about time and space regardless of how great a thinker they were. They (and their thinking) are a product of the time in which they existed.

So if St Augustine was a great thinking and were we able to transport him to 2024, then presumably he would recognise (from today's knowledge) that time isn't constant and that the universe is a lot older than a few thousand years.

[ekim]

An assertion which takes away any possibility of the free will we all employ and enjoy in posting this forum.

It could also be said that this is your assertion based upon the desire to reply to Stranger's post and therefore your will is not free but is attached to or driven by the desire to do so.

[Alan Burns]

It's not an assertion Alan, it's bleedin' obvious because any chain of thought ends some time after it starts. Any choice, requires a before and an after.

It's truly fucking incredible that somebody who's supposed to have a PhD and be a member of Mensa, can post such unadulterated idiocy.

You can't have any will at all—free or otherwise—without time. A choice requires a time before you've made it, where you contemplate the options, a transition to having made a choice, and a time after the choice, to implement it.

This is all totally impossible without time.

You do not seem to be able to contemplate the possibility, - or even probability, that our conscious mind can interact (not just react) within the time dimension we exist in.  We are consciously aware of past events which can influence the choices we make and the thoughts we invoke, but the reality is that we are not entirely driven by past events - we are free to act upon them as we wish.  You claim that every moment of our lives is entirely defined by past events and we cannot possibly have done anything differently.  I totally agree with you that this is the only feasible scenario if we are bound by the time dependent chains of "cause and effect" we observe in material entities - but in reaching this conclusion you continue to ignore the God given power of our human soul.

[Stranger]

You do not seem to be able to contemplate the possibility, - or even probability, that our conscious mind can interact (not just react) within the time dimension we exist in.

It's not a possibility, let alone a probability, it's a totally meaningless form of words that you've concocted to try and pretend that you have a way out of the basic logic that you don't like. It doesn't actually have any meaning at all. If you analysis it, there's literally nothing there. It's empty gibberish.

We are consciously aware of past events which can influence the choices we make and the thoughts we invoke, but the reality is that we are not entirely driven by past events - we are free to act upon them as we wish.

Yes, we are free to act as we wish. We cannot, however, decide to wish for things we don't actually wish for. You can't be free of being you, that would be nonsensical.

...but in reaching this conclusion you continue to ignore the God given power of our human soul.

"It's magic, innit?" 

[Enki]

You do not seem to be able to contemplate the possibility, - or even probability, that our conscious mind can interact (not just react) within the time dimension we exist in.  We are consciously aware of past events which can influence the choices we make and the thoughts we invoke, but the reality is that we are not entirely driven by past events - we are free to act upon them as we wish.  You claim that every moment of our lives is entirely defined by past events and we cannot possibly have done anything differently.  I totally agree with you that this is the only feasible scenario if we are bound by the time dependent chains of "cause and effect" we observe in material entities - but in reaching this conclusion you continue to ignore the God given power of our human soul.

From your post 372

You are trying to define what the limitations of "outside time" are by looking at them from within the time dependent space of our universe.  Try to imagine this scenario the other way round - from a timeless state it may be possible to be aware of every event which has ever occurred from the big bang to the death of the universe itself.

In which case it follows that we could not do anything differently then.

As regards your last sentence:

God = assertion

human soul= assertion

[ekim]

- we are free to act upon them as we wish. 

.... which illustrates what I put in my previous post i.e. you are not free from the wish or desire to act or not act.

[Alan Burns]

In which case it follows that we could not do anything differently then.

What I was postulating was that God, from His ever present existence outside our time dimension, can be aware of what we do with our gift of free will without taking away our freedom to use it as we wish within our time dimension.

[Alan Burns]

.... which illustrates what I put in my previous post i.e. you are not free from the wish or desire to act or not act.

All I am saying is that the implementation of our wishes and desires are not entirely dictated by past events, but by the God given power of our human soul.

[Alan Burns]

It's not a possibility, let alone a probability, it's a totally meaningless form of words that you've concocted to try and pretend that you have a way out of the basic logic that you don't like. It doesn't actually have any meaning at all. If you analysis it, there's literally nothing there. It's empty gibberish.

It simply means that we are free to choose our own destiny.

[Nearly Sane]

All I am saying is that the implementation of our wishes and desires are not entirely dictated by past events, but by the God given power of our human soul.

And in years talking about this you have never even given a basic idea of what that means, or how it avoids the logical problem of something neither been caused or random.

[Nearly Sane]

It simply means that we are free to choose our own destiny.

on what basis is the choice made?

[Stranger]

...ever present existence outside our time dimension...

Totally meaningless gibberish.   

...by the God given power of our human soul.

"It's magic, innt?"

Is there a rational thought left in your head any more, or has all rationality been killed by your crippling blind faith?

[ekim]

All I am saying is that the implementation of our wishes and desires are not entirely dictated by past events, but by the God given power of our human soul.

If your actions result from your wishes and desires you will need to show how those desires are not based upon past events.  You also need to describe what you mean by 'soul' especially as this word is a translation of the Greek word 'psyche' in the Gospels.

[Stranger]

It simply means that we are free to choose our own destiny.

Yes, we are, but we do so according to who we are, and who we are is the direct result of our nature, nurture, and experience. If our basic nature, and every experience we have ever had in our lives does not fully determine who we are and hence what we choose, then there is literally nothing else left that can influence our choices, so any further variation must be for no reason, i.e. random.