Author Topic: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️  (Read 13657 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #500 on: March 19, 2025, 01:03:35 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Dawkins completely and famously misunderstood Aquinas as saying that absolutely everything has a cause, which is not what Aquinas was saying at all.
If dDawkins can be pinned down to a philosophy, and many people in his circles don’t it would be Smolin’s darwinianian cosmology which itself shows no attempt to eliminate an infinite recession of causes.

Let’s not forget either that Dawkins and Myers don’t like physicists that much either.

Always lift your Dahlias in autumn.

So now we've both wandered down entirely irrelevant sidetracks, back to the question you keep avoiding:

Here again is the CR in full:

I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor's boots, nor does he give a moment's consideration to Bellini's masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor's Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor's raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must wear undergarments of the finest silk. Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_reply

Now show me the part that justifies your assertion in Reply 471 that “…PZ Myers popularised the Courtiers reply fallacy which suggests you don’t have to know about a topic in order to dismiss it.”

Put up or shut up.

 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #501 on: March 19, 2025, 01:06:04 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Myers wasted that time and effort giving a shit analogy.

True or not (and it isn't) that doesn't give you licence to flat out lie about it though.

Put up or shut up. Your call.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #502 on: March 19, 2025, 01:18:53 PM »
Vlad,

True or not (and it isn't) that doesn't give you licence to flat out lie about it though.

Put up or shut up. Your call.
I have put up my position on this already, so I shan’t indulge your request for a courtroom drama.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #503 on: March 19, 2025, 01:26:41 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I have put up my position on this already, so I shan’t indulge your request for a courtroom drama.

Your position is that you either misunderstood or flat out lied about the CR, and now that's been explained to you you refuse to do anything about it.

Do you think Jesus would be proud of your behaviour, presumably because you think injunctions about bearing false witness don't apply to you?

Really though?
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Gonnagle

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #504 on: March 19, 2025, 01:32:53 PM »
No idea what point you are trying to make.

My point is that the golden rule seems to be pretty well universal (articulated of course in different wording) across human cultures and societies for as far back as we have records and as widely geographically as humans have inhabited. And it exists in cultures that see it in both a religious and a non religious context. Almost as if there is some kind of evolutionary imperative in people in human societies having empathy with each other and acting in a cooperative and reciprocal manner with each other.

Almost as if human's evolutionary advantage comes from societal cooperation based on mutual reciprocity and empathy.

Note too that in most ancient contexts the golden rule was only really applied to others in their 'tribe' - all bets were off in terms of how you treated the other 'tribe' down the road, or in the next valley, not of your class/religion etc. Again completely explainably in evolutionary terms.

Dear Prof,

Thank you once again, I have no problem with the science, I agree totally with all the above, but modern science has came on a pace, modern science now says it was not just your fellow tribesmen if you see another human being the golden rule part of your brain lights up ( special name for it I am not a neuroscientist ) but my point is a man some call a God told me how to worship God, no strings attached, but he knew I am human ( no I am ) err to greed, lust, anger, hatred, jealousy, envy, that about covers the bad bits, but if I read a certain book properly ( I think this was Vlads point ) it brings out the good bits.

Probably not explained that properly, not as erudite as some on here, but I say thank you Jesus.

Gonnagle.

PS: Not just read and understand but practice, another rule, maybe not golden, silver lined, practice practice practice. "Never say you have found the truth only say you have found a truth", wee Muslim guy said that. ;)

PPS: Are you human Prof :)
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

Gonnagle

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #505 on: March 19, 2025, 02:01:10 PM »
Which is basically the golden rule, which pre-dates the incoherent and contradictory bible. And of course, there is plenty in the bible that contradicts that rule too. No idea at all what you think Vlad has said that makes any sense. If people read the bible with an open mind, sure they'll find the nice bits, but they'll also find all the contradictions and the nasty bits about a psychopathic, jealous, vindictive, capricious, petty, vengeful, and patently unjust God who approves of stuff like slavery and genocide.

It's a great advert for atheism.

Dear Stranger,

God give me strength, 🎵dance through the time warp again🎶 been here, done that, got the T shirt, burnt the T shirt who needs a fucking T shirt, who wrote the Bible, when was it written, why was it written at that particular time, what message was it trying to convey to the people of that time, what situation were the people of that time in, is it a true story or Myth ( don't go there Stranger ) time after time these Jewish people were getting a good kicking ( although they did give sometimes as good as they got ) but the central message throughout the old testament was go and have a cuppa with that wee tribe in the next valley, sit down like grown ups, but did they like fig they did ( gave up swearing for the day ) but then a guy came along, Golden rule guy.

End of sermon, but its not is it.

Do we have a break, popcorn time :o

Gonnagle.
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

Stranger

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #506 on: March 19, 2025, 02:13:33 PM »
...but the central message throughout the old testament was go and have a cuppa with that wee tribe in the next valley, sit down like grown ups...

Yeah, right.

2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
-- 1 Samuel 15:2-3 NIV
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #507 on: March 19, 2025, 04:51:09 PM »
Vlad,

Always lift your Dahlias in autumn.

So now we've both wandered down entirely irrelevant sidetracks, back to the question you keep avoiding:

Here again is the CR in full:

I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor's boots, nor does he give a moment's consideration to Bellini's masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor's Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor's raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must wear undergarments of the finest silk. Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_reply

Now show me the part that justifies your assertion in Reply 471 that “…PZ Myers popularised the Courtiers reply fallacy which suggests you don’t have to know about a topic in order to dismiss it.”

Put up or shut up.
The Courtiers reply is fallacious only because the only knowledge needed is that there are no clothes.

In the context of Dawkins then the only knowledge needed is that there is no Go' oh wait a minute.

Here's another one, Evolution is plainly stupid. To which the reply is , you haven't read Darwin.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #508 on: March 19, 2025, 05:07:03 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
The Courtiers reply is fallacious only because the only knowledge needed is that there are no clothes.

No it isn’t. It merely illustrates that all that’s necessary to dismiss a faith belief is the falsification of the justifying arguments for its foundational claims, not of the minutiae and arcana of the subsidiary details attached to those foundational claims. Hence your assertion in Reply 471 that “…PZ Myers popularised the Courtiers reply fallacy which suggests you don’t have to know about a topic in order to dismiss it…” was a mistake or a lie.     

Quote
In the context of Dawkins then the only knowledge needed is that there is no Go' oh wait a minute.

No it isn’t. The only knowledge needed is the knowledge that the arguments attempted by the theist for his foundational beliefs are wrong, or not even wrong – a simple thing to do in your case (for example, your assertion that the universe cannot itself be necessary that you then run away from every time you’re asked to justify it). 

Quote
Here's another one, Evolution is plainly stupid. To which the reply is , you haven't read Darwin.

Wrong again. The Theory of Evolution (not “Evolution”) rests of relatively few foundational arguments. It’s not necessary to know the life cycle of dung beetles specifically to be able to examine the validity of those foundational arguments.

Yet again, in Reply 471 either you fucked up or you lied about what the CR actually entails. Take your pick.     
« Last Edit: March 19, 2025, 05:14:58 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #509 on: March 19, 2025, 11:28:47 PM »

Nature, nurture, and experiences has made you the person you are and the person you are is in control. There is no different 'you' that would make the statement "we can have no control over our destiny" make any sense at all. You can't, however, change the person you are. You can't want what you don't want.

And there really is no escaping the logic that there is nothing else that can possibly be a reason for any choice you make, so if any variation is possible it must be for no reason (random). Of course, it's a very complicated, quite possibly chaotic (mathematical sense), and indirect process. All the influences throughout your life change who you are (if only by a tiny amount) and it's who you have become at a moment of choice that determines what you choose.
You put a lot of faith in what the past events of nature, nurture and experience can achieve.
You seem to be unable to differentiate the difference between reaction and control.
We can have no control over past events, so your perceived logic must mean that any form of conscious control is impossible because we have no control over past events - we can only react.
Can you not see that you are in control?
Whatever comprises "you" can consciously interact rather than just react in order to achieve your consciously perceived intentions and goals.
How this interaction can occur cannot be explained by our limited knowledge of reality, but that does not mean that it does not exist.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #510 on: March 20, 2025, 06:51:12 AM »
Vlad,

No it isn’t. It merely illustrates that all that’s necessary to dismiss a faith belief is the falsification of the justifying arguments for its foundational claims, not of the minutiae and arcana of the subsidiary details attached to those foundational claims. Hence your assertion in Reply 471 that “…PZ Myers popularised the Courtiers reply fallacy which suggests you don’t have to know about a topic in order to dismiss it…” was a mistake or a lie.     

No it isn’t. The only knowledge needed is the knowledge that the arguments attempted by the theist for his foundational beliefs are wrong, or not even wrong – a simple thing to do in your case (for example, your assertion that the universe cannot itself be necessary that you then run away from every time you’re asked to justify it). 

Wrong again. The Theory of Evolution (not “Evolution”) rests of relatively few foundational arguments. It’s not necessary to know the life cycle of dung beetles specifically to be able to examine the validity of those foundational arguments.

Yet again, in Reply 471 either you fucked up or you lied about what the CR actually entails. Take your pick.     
I don't know what youre on today , this isn't about knowing and dismissing the arguments, this is about not having to know them!!! You are mistaken about Dawkins showing philosophical and theological deftness.The point is, you don't need to because to Dawkins and Myers it's obvious there isn't a God, that the King has no clothes.

This erudite intellect who has demolished arguments though.
That is you....isn't it Hillside.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 07:10:47 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Gordon

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #511 on: March 20, 2025, 08:17:50 AM »
I don't know what youre on today , this isn't about knowing and dismissing the arguments, this is about not having to know them!!!

In order to dismiss an argument you need to know something about it (in order to formulate a rebuttal), and if you can rebut it on first principles then any peripheral details become irrelevant.

You clearly don't understand the Courtier's Reply

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #512 on: March 20, 2025, 09:10:41 AM »
I don't know what youre on today , this isn't about knowing and dismissing the arguments, this is about not having to know them!!! You are mistaken about Dawkins showing philosophical and theological deftness.The point is, you don't need to because to Dawkins and Myers it's obvious there isn't a God, that the King has no clothes.

This erudite intellect who has demolished arguments though.
That is you....isn't it Hillside.
Nope - you are completely missing the point.

The point being that if a claim cannot be substantiated on first principles then any amount of detail predicated on those first principles becomes irrelevant. And it doesn't need any knowledge of those subsequent claims dependent on that first principle to rebut the claim.

So another example. Imagine there is a claim that the edge of the earth has a chamfer and is coloured blue. This can be rebutted on the overarching first principle (the earth is flat) by either providing evidence that the earth is round or that there is no evidence that the earth is flat. Knowledge or otherwise of the claimed shape/colour of that flat edge is irrelevant. Without the first principle claim being proved or substantiated knowledge of sub-claims isn't necessary.

So until or unless you can substantiate a first principle claim that god exists the notion/requirement for knowledge of any sub-claims (what god looks like, what god does, how god communicates with us etc etc) is simple moot.

jeremyp

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #513 on: March 20, 2025, 09:11:57 AM »
The Courtiers reply is fallacious only because the only knowledge needed is that there are no clothes.
Wrong.

The claim is that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. The fallacy is that, in order to prove the claim, you need a detailed understanding of the clothes that the emperor is not wearing. The reality is that the only evidence you need is that the emperor is naked and anybody can see that.

Quote
In the context of Dawkins then the only knowledge needed is that there is no Go' oh wait a minute.
No. The claim is that there probably is no god. The only thing you need to refute the claim is evidence that there is a god. Treatises on the nature of the said god are irrelevant to the claim of whether the god exists in the first place.

Quote
Here's another one, Evolution is plainly stupid. To which the reply is , you haven't read Darwin.
That's not the reply. The reply is to present the evidence that evolution does happen.
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Stranger

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #514 on: March 20, 2025, 09:25:16 AM »
You put a lot of faith in what the past events of nature, nurture and experience can achieve.

I'm putting no faith in anything. This is just logic. You start your life in an initial state, and everything that happens afterwards acts on that basic nature to produce a person that goes on changing as they gain more experience. That person is the one who chooses and acts.

Since there is no other influence on them, either all that produces only one possible choice at any given moment, or, if not, any variation is for no reason at all (random).

You seem to be unable to differentiate the difference between reaction and control.

Control is a reaction.

We can have no control over past events, so your perceived logic must mean that any form of conscious control...

For fuck's sake, what is the matter with you? As I've pointed out multiple times now, the role of consciousness is totally irrelevant to the logic. It doesn't matter how much of the control is conscious.

Did the role of consciousness appear in any of the explanation I just gave you? No, it didn't. The logic applies just as much to your conscious mind as anything else. Get over your 'conscious control' obsession.

Can you not see that you are in control?

I am in control.

Whatever comprises "you" can consciously interact rather than just react in order to achieve your consciously perceived intentions and goals.
How this interaction can occur cannot be explained by our limited knowledge of reality, but that does not mean that it does not exist.

Pointless fairytale based on nothing but blind faith.  ::)

Fallacy tally:
FALLACY: Argument by assertion.
FALLACY: Personal incredulity.
FALLACY: Appeal to consequences.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #515 on: March 20, 2025, 09:27:12 AM »
In order to dismiss an argument you need to know something about it (in order to formulate a rebuttal), and if you can rebut it on first principles then any peripheral details become irrelevant.

You clearly don't understand the Courtier's Reply

Dear Gordon, Good Morning ( see that is politeness, some thing that was slapped into me from a very early age, and I do think it has something to do with what old Vlad and Blue are chuntering on about )

Well thank you but no thank you.

So where was I, oh yes hanging from my finger nails shouting yes Blue I have aaaarrrrggghh :-\ and then shouting yes Vlad I have aaaaaaarrrgh :)

Right to begin ( fuck sake Gonnagle I thought you were finished )

Blue, Foundational arguments :-\

Foundational arguments, in the context of epistemology, are arguments that propose a solution to the regress problem of justification, suggesting that some beliefs are foundational and don't require further justification, serving as the basis for all other beliefs.
Here's a more detailed explanation:
The Regress Problem:
In epistemology (the study of knowledge), the regress problem arises from the idea that every belief needs justification, and that justification itself needs further justification, leading to an infinite chain.
Foundationalism as a Solution:
Foundationalism attempts to resolve this problem by proposing that some beliefs are "basic" or "foundational" and do not require justification from other beliefs.
Foundational Beliefs:
These foundational beliefs are believed to be self-evident or justified through direct intuition or experience.
Justification of Other Beliefs:
Other beliefs are then justified by being based on these foundational beliefs.
Examples of Foundational Beliefs:
In legal systems, foundational beliefs can be found in constitutional principles or fundamental rights, such as freedom of speech, equality before the law, or the right to a fair trial.
Criticisms of Foundationalism:
Foundationalism has faced criticism, with some arguing that it's difficult to identify truly foundational beliefs and that it can lead to skepticism.
Alternatives to Foundationalism:
Some philosophers propose alternative theories of justification, such as coherentism, which argues that beliefs are justified by their coherence with each other, rather than by a foundation.



Well I have read that and I can't disagree with any of it, my foundational belief, God, well actually I do disagree, I do think it needs justification but I have justification, my life, everytime I have fell he has picked me up dusted me off and told me to get on with it, nobody likes a know it all✝️

So then Vlad comes along ( excuse me ladies and gentlemen but if I put this down in black and white it helps me )

Evolution is stupid, have you read Darwin, for years I took the theory as done and dusted, I love the science, but when I started to read about it, find out about it, really study it, it then became more clearer, it had justification, of course it has holes, not hole holes, spaces as in DNA, DNA has filled another hole.

So anyway, this debate ( I am calling it a debate ) I do think that to argue for or against you really need to know your subject.

To end, Confirmation bias, trying to get my head around that one, it seems to me that we are all victims of this, Atheist/Theist and all points in between.

Blue/Vlad, who love ya baby, I do, anyman who increases my knowledge I will gladly shake their hand.

Gonnagle.
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #516 on: March 20, 2025, 09:29:26 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
I don't know what youre on today , this isn't about knowing and dismissing the arguments, this is about not having to know them!!! You are mistaken about Dawkins showing philosophical and theological deftness.The point is, you don't need to because to Dawkins and Myers it's obvious there isn't a God, that the King has no clothes.

This erudite intellect who has demolished arguments though.
That is you....isn't it Hillside.

Not sure which Reply you think you're trying to address here, but as it bears no relationship to mine here it is again with emphasis added for the hard of understanding:

"No it isn’t. It merely illustrates that all that’s necessary to dismiss a faith belief is the falsification of the justifying arguments for its foundational claims, not of the minutiae and arcana of the subsidiary details attached to those foundational claims. Hence your assertion in Reply 471 that “…PZ Myers popularised the Courtiers reply fallacy which suggests you don’t have to know about a topic in order to dismiss it…” was a mistake or a lie.     

No it isn’t. The only knowledge needed is the knowledge that the arguments attempted by the theist for his foundational beliefs are wrong, or not even wrong – a simple thing to do in your case (for example, your assertion that the universe cannot itself be necessary that you then run away from every time you’re asked to justify it).

Wrong again. The Theory of Evolution (not “Evolution”) rests of relatively few foundational arguments. It’s not necessary to know the life cycle of dung beetles specifically to be able to examine the validity of those foundational arguments.

Yet again, in Reply 471 either you fucked up or you lied about what the CR actually entails. Take your pick."     
« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 09:38:07 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #517 on: March 20, 2025, 09:36:35 AM »
Hi Gonners,

Quote
So anyway, this debate ( I am calling it a debate ) I do think that to argue for or against you really need to know your subject.

Depends what you mean by "your subject". Let's say that I contend that leprechauns are real because lots of people believe in them. You could quickly falsify that as a justifying argument right?

OK, now let's say that I reply with: "ah, but your ignorance of the dress sense of leprechauns, of their musical states and of what they like for breakfast means you're insufficiently equipped to make that judgment".

Would you see anything wrong with that?

That's the point of the CR that Vlad keeps screwing up.

     
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #518 on: March 20, 2025, 09:46:12 AM »
Wrong.

The claim is that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. The fallacy is that, in order to prove the claim, you need a detailed understanding of the clothes that the emperor is not wearing. The reality is that the only evidence you need is that the emperor is naked and anybody can see that.
No. The claim is that there probably is no god. The only thing you need to refute the claim is evidence that there is a god. Treatises on the nature of the said god are irrelevant to the claim of whether the god exists in the first place.
That's not the reply. The reply is to present the evidence that evolution does happen.
Bad analogy
Compare these:
There are no clothes
There is probably no God

The Ł64, 000 Dollar request

Demonstrate that there probably isn't a God rather than asserting it.

"The Kings got no clothes" the actual story says.

The Courtiers reply is bollocks in the hands of atheists. Stick to atheism is merely the lack of belief in God.

Gonnagle

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #519 on: March 20, 2025, 09:48:42 AM »
Dear Thread,

And then!!! ( I blame the education system :P )

Coherentism

In the context of epistemology (the study of knowledge), coherentism is a theory of justification that asserts a belief is justified if it coheres with a system of other beliefs, rather than being justified by external evidence or foundational truths.
Here's a more detailed explanation:
Coherence as Justification:
Coherentism proposes that a belief is justified if it fits well within a larger, coherent system of beliefs.
Contrast with Foundationalism:
This contrasts with foundationalism, which argues that beliefs are justified by a foundation of basic, self-evident beliefs.
Components of Coherence:
Coherence typically involves logical consistency, explanatory relations, and various inductive relations between beliefs.
Coherence Theory of Truth:
Some coherentists also propose a coherence theory of truth, suggesting that a belief is true to the extent that it coheres with a system of other beliefs.
Holistic Approach:
Coherentism is often seen as a holistic approach to justification, meaning that the justification of a belief depends on its relation to the whole system of beliefs, rather than being justified independently.
Criticisms:
Coherentism has faced criticism, with some arguing that a coherent system of beliefs could be entirely false, or that the concept of coherence is too vague.


So I will just pop off and ask my brothers in Islam/Judaism.Sikhism.Hinduism, God? yeah God! what about God? yeah God, sorry lets try this, do you all believe in a God? yeah God, now fuck off! bloody hell but then I have always thought Christianity is the polite religion✝️

Gonnagle.
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #520 on: March 20, 2025, 09:51:02 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Demonstrate that there probably isn't a God rather than asserting it.

Easy. In the absence of sound justifying reasons for "God is real", epistemically the claim is classified as a guess. Axiomatically, guesses are more likely to be wrong than to be right. Same goes for leprechauns.

QED 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #521 on: March 20, 2025, 09:51:20 AM »
Nope - you are completely missing the point.

The point being that if a claim cannot be substantiated on first principles then any amount of detail predicated on those first principles becomes irrelevant. And it doesn't need any knowledge of those subsequent claims dependent on that first principle to rebut the claim.

So another example. Imagine there is a claim that the edge of the earth has a chamfer and is coloured blue. This can be rebutted on the overarching first principle (the earth is flat) by either providing evidence that the earth is round or that there is no evidence that the earth is flat. Knowledge or otherwise of the claimed shape/colour of that flat edge is irrelevant. Without the first principle claim being proved or substantiated knowledge of sub-claims isn't necessary.

So until or unless you can substantiate a first principle claim that god exists the notion/requirement for knowledge of any sub-claims (what god looks like, what god does, how god communicates with us etc etc) is simple moot.
Out of the dross and rebuttals which really back up what I am saying I have chosen this oasis of reason to comment on. But later.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #522 on: March 20, 2025, 09:52:58 AM »
Vlad,

Easy. In the absence of sound justifying reasons for "God is real", epistemically the claim is classified as a guess. Axiomatically, guesses are more likely to be wrong than to be right. Same goes for leprechauns.

QED
No probability requires calculation. How probable is it?
Calculator out.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #523 on: March 20, 2025, 10:00:30 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
No probability requires calculation. How probable is it?
Calculator out.

Wrong again. Calculating what the probability is may require a calculator, but the axiomatic principle that guesses are less likely to be correct than non-guesses does not.

QED. Again. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #524 on: March 20, 2025, 10:02:30 AM »
Hi Gonners,

Depends what you mean by "your subject". Let's say that I contend that leprechauns are real because lots of people believe in them. You could quickly falsify that as a justifying argument right?

OK, now let's say that I reply with: "ah, but your ignorance of the dress sense of leprechauns, of their musical states and of what they like for breakfast means you're insufficiently equipped to make that judgment".

Would you see anything wrong with that?

That's the point of the CR that Vlad keeps screwing up.

     
Why do you disbelieve in Leprechauns and is the same reason as me.

Hillside thinks he has falsified all arguments for Leprechauns and yet I disbelieve them on the grounds that there are no scientifically attested instances of wee Irish men dressed in green.